We are saving the Greeks by the European Central Bank

[Arising_uk]

Fuck a single currency for more than one country. It's bizarre on the face of it.

I think the idea was to sneak into a Federal State and from the looks of it the political elites are going to use Greece as an excuse to speed up this process by trying to unify taxation, welfare and banking policies.

[Brit Dems]

Boxing the Greeks!

Hello?

Does anybody out there realise what is going on?

[Arising_uk]

Does anybody out there realise what is going on?

Yup! A country of 11 million people ran up a 350 trillion euro debt and now can't pay and are likely to go bust with pretty dire consequences.

[Dalek Prime]

Wall Greece in to die, and correct the books to show no loss lol!

[Obvious Leo]

Does anybody out there realise what is going on?

Yup! A country of 11 million people ran up a 350 trillion euro debt and now can't pay and are likely to go bust with pretty dire consequences.

I'm all for hyperbole where possible but I think you'll find that the actual debt was 350 billion euros, not trillion. Greece has a long and honourable history of never paying its debts dating back to 400 BC but it's gone bust plenty of times before. In a sense the Europeans have only got themselves to blame because any idiot could see that no Greek government in history has ever understood the Micawber Principle and this has been especially evident since WWII. The Micawber Principle is named after Mr Wilkins Micawber, a character in Dickens' masterful novel, David Copperfield, who famously said this:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."

For those unfamiliar with 19th century British currency what Wilkins was simply pointing out is that if we spend more money than we earn it can only end in tears.

[Arising_uk]

I'm all for hyperbole where possible but I think you'll find that the actual debt was 350 billion euros, not trillion. ...

Whoops! My apologies.

Greece has a long and honourable history of never paying its debts dating back to 400 BC but it's gone bust plenty of times before. In a sense the Europeans have only got themselves to blame because any idiot could see that no Greek government in history has ever understood the Micawber Principle and this has been especially evident since WWII. The Micawber Principle is named after Mr Wilkins Micawber, a character in Dickens' masterful novel, David Copperfield, who famously said this:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."

For those unfamiliar with 19th century British currency what Wilkins was simply pointing out is that if we spend more money than we earn it can only end in tears.

No arguments here and I'd add that the EU should have kept to their economic entry criteria and never allowed the Greeks into the Euro in the first place, along with the Spanish and Portuguese and probably the Italians as well. But then again the whole point was federalism by stealth. Still lets see what happens when millions of Greeks start to leave if it truly goes tits-up.

On this matter, I hear little about the geo-politics in my press, just the economic ones, so what happens to NATO and will this cause an issue in the Balkans? Brrr!

[Obvious Leo]

No arguments here and I'd add that the EU should have kept to their economic entry criteria and never allowed the Greeks into the Euro in the first place

The gossip is that the Greeks lied from the beginning and covered up tens of billions in debt when the ECB examined their books.

But then again the whole point was federalism by stealth.

I don't doubt that this is so but I can't see how a unified currency without a true federalism is even possible. As a person of Dutch heritage I have no love for the Germans but I truly can feel for the thrifty hard-working Kraut watching his tax euros being squandered on subsidised ouzo for a Greek public servant lying on the beach. No doubt Merkel will be aware that the patience of her constituency must be wearing thin.

On this matter, I hear little about the geo-politics in my press, just the economic ones, so what happens to NATO and will this cause an issue in the Balkans?

I doubt it. The Greeks never really had any geo-political clout either inside or outside Europe and their military is of no significance. I think the last time they won a battle was against Darius of Persia under Alexander the Great, although I believe this historic victory is still celebrated with great gusto in the barracks.

[Arising_uk]

The gossip is that the Greeks lied from the beginning and covered up tens of billions in debt when the ECB examined their books.

The real gossip is that the ECB knew all this but it was a political face-saving/posturing decision and applied to the PIGS all round.

I don't doubt that this is so but I can't see how a unified currency without a true federalism is even possible. As a person of Dutch heritage I have no love for the Germans but I truly can feel for the thrifty hard-working Kraut watching his tax euros being squandered on subsidised ouzo for a Greek public servant lying on the beach. No doubt Merkel will be aware that the patience of her constituency must be wearing thin.

No argument there but I have little time for the German worker in this matter as they've made a mint out of the Euro and it was their banks making these dodgy loans to goats that they knew were cooking the books.

I doubt it. The Greeks never really had any geo-political clout either inside or outside Europe and their military is of no significance. I think the last time they won a battle was against Darius of Persia under Alexander the Great, although I believe this historic victory is still celebrated with great gusto in the barracks.

But they are a frontline NATO base and it isn't the military who cause the problem in the Balkans but the peasants with guns.

I'll be amazed if the EU 'leaders' are stupid enough to let Greece collapse given that the sum to bail them out is paltry compared to what we paid the bankers.

[Dalek Prime]

Does anybody out there realise what is going on?

Yup! A country of 11 million people ran up a 350 trillion euro debt and now can't pay and are likely to go bust with pretty dire consequences.

I'm all for hyperbole where possible but I think you'll find that the actual debt was 350 billion euros, not trillion. Greece has a long and honourable history of never paying its debts dating back to 400 BC but it's gone bust plenty of times before. In a sense the Europeans have only got themselves to blame because any idiot could see that no Greek government in history has ever understood the Micawber Principle and this has been especially evident since WWII. The Micawber Principle is named after Mr Wilkins Micawber, a character in Dickens' masterful novel, David Copperfield, who famously said this:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."

For those unfamiliar with 19th century British currency what Wilkins was simply pointing out is that if we spend more money than we earn it can only end in tears.

Excellent quote and reminder, Leo. I'd love to know, on an individual level, how many commentators on Greece live in solvency. My net worth is a positive. Zero debts. Don't use credit.

[Dubious]

No arguments here and I'd add that the EU should have kept to their economic entry criteria and never allowed the Greeks into the Euro in the first place

The gossip is that the Greeks lied from the beginning and covered up tens of billions in debt when the ECB examined their books.

... another Trojan Horse cover up 3000 years later. The principle remains intact. Don't trust Greeks bearing books.

[Obvious Leo]

The real gossip is that the ECB knew all this but it was a political face-saving/posturing decision and applied to the PIGS all round.

I wouldn't doubt it for the simple reason that I can't conceive of any skullduggery which wouldn't adequately conform to the moral code of an investment banker.

No argument there but I have little time for the German worker in this matter as they've made a mint out of the Euro and it was their banks making these dodgy loans to goats that they knew were cooking the books.

I'm not sure that your average German worker is aware of this. Clearly the biggest winner from the unified currency has been the German manufacturing sector, the corollary of which is that this sector has the most to lose if the euro goes belly-up, which explains why the Chinese haven't lifted a finger to help them out despite the fact that they're awash with cash. As a mate of mine once said to me: There's no such thing as a stupid Chinaman. I'm inclined to agree with this sentiment because the Chinese were doing business back when the Germans were still living in caves so they'll be delaying their intervention until such time as they have a squirrel grip on the negotiations. Cameron won't even see them coming because he's a moron when it comes to international finance.

I'll be amazed if the EU 'leaders' are stupid enough to let Greece collapse given that the sum to bail them out is paltry compared to what we paid the bankers.

I tend to agree. At the moment they're still talking tough but if they force Greece to a default the genie will be out of the bottle and no amount of posturing will stuff it back in again. The rest of the dominoes will fall one by one.

[Obvious Leo]

My net worth is a positive. Zero debts. Don't use credit.

I'm the same, mate, and have been since I paid my first house off 25 years ago. My wife and I worked incredibly hard to pay this off as quickly as possible but it only took us just over 5 years to do it and we've never had a moment's financial worry ever since, despite the fact that we've both only ever worked part-time ever since. Our net worth isn't much to brag about but at least it's ours and no bastard can come and take it off us and it's all down to a single simple rule. If you haven't got any money you can't buy anything. I'm also proud of the fact that both of our kids live their lives according to exactly the same principle.

[Dalek Prime]

The real gossip is that the ECB knew all this but it was a political face-saving/posturing decision and applied to the PIGS all round.

I wouldn't doubt it for the simple reason that I can't conceive of any skullduggery which wouldn't adequately conform to the moral code of an investment banker.

No argument there but I have little time for the German worker in this matter as they've made a mint out of the Euro and it was their banks making these dodgy loans to goats that they knew were cooking the books.

I'm not sure that your average German worker is aware of this. Clearly the biggest winner from the unified currency has been the German manufacturing sector, the corollary of which is that this sector has the most to lose if the euro goes belly-up, which explains why the Chinese haven't lifted a finger to help them out despite the fact that they're awash with cash. As a mate of mine once said to me: There's no such thing as a stupid Chinaman. I'm inclined to agree with this sentiment because the Chinese were doing business back when the Germans were still living in caves so they'll be delaying their intervention until such time as they have a squirrel grip on the negotiations. Cameron won't even see them coming because he's a moron when it comes to international finance.

I'll be amazed if the EU 'leaders' are stupid enough to let Greece collapse given that the sum to bail them out is paltry compared to what we paid the bankers.

I tend to agree. At the moment they're still talking tough but if they force Greece to a default the genie will be out of the bottle and no amount of posturing will stuff it back in again. The rest of the dominoes will fall one by one.

I'd love to see the shit hit the fan. I'd love to see all third world countries just say "no more payments".

[Dalek Prime]

My net worth is a positive. Zero debts. Don't use credit.

I'm the same, mate, and have been since I paid my first house off 25 years ago. My wife and I worked incredibly hard to pay this off as quickly as possible but it only took us just over 5 years to do it and we've never had a moment's financial worry ever since, despite the fact that we've both only ever worked part-time ever since. Our net worth isn't much to brag about but at least it's ours and no bastard can come and take it off us and it's all down to a single simple rule. If you haven't got any money you can't buy anything. I'm also proud of the fact that both of our kids live their lives according to exactly the same principle.

It's the closest one can get to being "free", having no debts. Good on you Leo.

[Obvious Leo]

I'd love to see the shit hit the fan. I'd love to see all third world countries just say "no more payments".

The anarchist in me would go along with this although the humanist Leo has some reservations. The short-term pain would be borne mostly by those on the bottom rungs of the socio-economic ladder, although one might well ask what's so new about that? Whether those on the bottom rungs would be the long-term beneficiaries of such a default would remain to be seen but in the best of all possible worlds they probably would be. However the social unrest stirred up in the interim might levy a cost burden too heavy for many third-world countries to bear.