Philosophy Now Forum

Skip wrote:That would make love of god not Stockholm Syndrome but a sham. Indeed.

In Stockholm Syndrome - as in parental or spousal abuse - there is an actual, present, real live captor and/or tormentor for the victim to fear, admire, obey, identify with and eventually become emotionally dependent upon.

In Christianity, there is .... ??? A story. But that story is told by the most powerful members of our own societies - who don't believe a word of it, but use it as both carrot and stick to get their own way.

No ..no ..and no!

Does all parents who lose their child become apostates? ..no, because they keep their faith and find an excuse. Only a minority will abandon their faith.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Milgram experiments better explain obedience to authority, through absolution of responsibility in merely following orders ie. the Nazi defense?

It might, however, explain horrible actions committed by men in the name of God.

Dalek Prime wrote:It might, however, explain horrible actions committed by men in the name of God.

"I was just following orders" certainly seems to be part of the human condition, but I don't think this is at the root of religious violence. Instead, there seems to be a sense of being an agent of God, rather than a simple foot soldier. Mark Jurgensmeyer's book, Terror in the Mind of God, does a good job of parsing out how religious violence is often justified by an appeal to a sort of anointed-ness on the part of the actor, rather than some sense of following orders (though that's certainly t play). The actor sees himself as ushering in some divine order, or as being involved in a sort of "cosmic war," etc. The book is definitely worth a read. I use it as a text in my "Ways of Being Religious" course. The students seem to find it pretty accessible. Lots of anecdotes, etc. You can even find a PDF copy of the 2nd edition online if you know where to look (not that I would encourage such a thing ).

HexHammer wrote:[Christianity is a story.... told by the powerful]
No ..no ..and no!

Does all parents who lose their child become apostates? ..no, because they keep their faith and find an excuse. Only a minority will abandon their faith.

Point is, it's not God who hurt them. God never does anything to them. God isn't there at all.
They're not pretending to love a person; they're pretending to love a character in a story.

A little girl with a crush on Spiderman doesn't love a person who can love her back; it's something in her own imagination that she desires. A little boy afraid of monsters in his closet is expressing his own insecurity: the monsters can't really hurt him. It's all pretend, and children generally know that it's all pretend.

I think adults also know that Jehovah isn't real; they're responding to something in their subconscious, pooling their wishful thinking and existential dread in a collective fantasy called God. You can't have an actual relationship with that.

Skip wrote:

HexHammer wrote:[Christianity is a story.... told by the powerful]
No ..no ..and no!

Does all parents who lose their child become apostates? ..no, because they keep their faith and find an excuse. Only a minority will abandon their faith.

Point is, it's not God who hurt them. God never does anything to them. God isn't there at all.
They're not pretending to love a person; they're pretending to love a character in a story.

A little girl with a crush on Spiderman doesn't love a person who can love her back; it's something in her own imagination that she desires. A little boy afraid of monsters in his closet is expressing his own insecurity: the monsters can't really hurt him. It's all pretend, and children generally know that it's all pretend.

I think adults also know that Jehovah isn't real; they're responding to something in their subconscious, pooling their wishful thinking and existential dread in a collective fantasy called God. You can't have an actual relationship with that.

So if everybody are pretending, why does people in the first place join the church? Why doesn't people leave the church?

..what you are are delusional nonsense and babble in it's purest form. Dear Skip I don't think you are very bright, nor very sane.

they're responding to something in their subconscious, pooling their wishful thinking and existential dread in a collective fantasy called God.

then handing the right of moral decision over to a bunch of priests.
That's delusional nonsense; not very bright or very sane - but it's not love and also not Stockholm Syndrome. It's much, much worse.

ReliStuPhD wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:It might, however, explain horrible actions committed by men in the name of God.

"I was just following orders" certainly seems to be part of the human condition, but I don't think this is at the root of religious violence. Instead, there seems to be a sense of being an agent of God, rather than a simple foot soldier. Mark Jurgensmeyer's book, Terror in the Mind of God, does a good job of parsing out how religious violence is often justified by an appeal to a sort of anointed-ness on the part of the actor, rather than some sense of following orders (though that's certainly t play). The actor sees himself as ushering in some divine order, or as being involved in a sort of "cosmic war," etc. The book is definitely worth a read. I use it as a text in my "Ways of Being Religious" course. The students seem to find it pretty accessible. Lots of anecdotes, etc. You can even find a PDF copy of the 2nd edition online if you know where to look (not that I would encourage such a thing ).

That would seem a more valid explanation for religious violence, yes. I just wanted to put Milgram in perspective. Thanks for pointing me to this book. I may just buy it, as I would never, ever, freeload off the Net.

Dalek Prime wrote:Thanks for pointing me to this book. I may just buy it, as I would never, ever, freeload off the Net.

It's worth having, however you go about getting it

Dalek Prime wrote:Based on our unequal relationship with God, and our inability to escape him, is the love of God really not a case of Stockholm syndrome? Or in the case of a complete faith, Oslo syndrome? And is God's love really not a case of Lima syndrome?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Yes, I'm half joking. But is there not some truth to this?

If stockholm syndrome is supposed to be an argument against God then it's a textbook genetic fallacy. Bad attributes of a God's believers doesn't make their beliefs themselves false.

alewis wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:Based on our unequal relationship with God, and our inability to escape him, is the love of God really not a case of Stockholm syndrome? Or in the case of a complete faith, Oslo syndrome? And is God's love really not a case of Lima syndrome?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Yes, I'm half joking. But is there not some truth to this?

If stockholm syndrome is supposed to be an argument against God then it's a textbook genetic fallacy. Bad attributes of a God's believers doesn't make their beliefs themselves false.

I'm actually a believer, if you'd bother to read more of my posts. But its funny you mention it. I was just reading about your 'euphoria' over your 'triumph' of intellect over belief in, as you say, a false God, which you wrote yesterday. Now you're arguing for God today? Do you even know what you really believe?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16247

I'll save you the time of refreshing your memory, Jimmy...

alewis wrote:To be clear, I'm not a professional "quote-maker", just an atheist teen who values his intelligence and scientific knowledge over any silly book of fairy tales written 3000 years ago. That being said, I am open to any and all criticisms.

"In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.

Now, you show me, Sonny Jim; where do I argue here that God doesn't exist? That's not even what my thread here is about.

Btw, how is it, with all the threads here on this forum, newbies are attracted to my posts like flies to shit? Ah well, doesn't matter. Welcome to the forum, fly. Try working on your quotes. They're not quotable.