Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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socratus
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by socratus »

jackles wrote:by knowing i am not jackles .i know that i am jackles.
the exact same as your you knows your not socratus.
this knowing that you are not somthing then confirms that you are that somthing
that you know your not.its the nothing that knows your something thats realy you.
and its the nothing that is nonlocal and the future tense of something.
your answer is surrealistic . . . . like

" Once I dreamed I was a butterfly,
and now I no longer know whether
I am Chuang-tzu, who dreamed I was
a butterfly, or whether I am a butterfly
dreaming that I am Chuang-tzu."
=.
jackles
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by jackles »

yeah i like that socratus.and the feeling it gives is spot on.
Blaggard
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by Blaggard »

I love how people can agree with irrelevancy if it subjugates their reason to agree with anything that is about science. Each to their own though. God does not make a case for reason any more than a dog if you reverse the name becomes god. I like turtles. Best thing you can say about nodding adherents.
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socratus
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by socratus »

Gödel’s Proof that God Exists
==..
How Modal Logic Proved Gödel was Right, and God Exists
/ October 31, 2013 by Mike DeHaan /
A recent headline claimed that Computer Scientists
‘Prove’ God Exists. What is the real story beneath the headline?
Who wrote the proof?
How did the scientists prove that God exists?
Finally – just what is “modal logic”?

Gödel’s Proof that God Exists

Christoph Benzmüller and Bruno W Paleo wrote a brief article
describing the verification of Kurt Gödel’s proof of God’s existence.
- - - - - - - -
Both Gödel and Euclid Used Axioms and Logic
- - - - - - - -
What is Modal Logic?
Modal logic deals with statements, or propositions, that express
“possibility” and “necessity.”

Many of us are more familiar with less expressive
“propositional logic,” limited to “if something exists” or
“if all somethings have this property.”

Benzmüller and Paleo’s paper states that they used several different
modal logic systems to verify Gödel’s proof.
Those are different logic systems, not just different computer programs
- - - - - - - -
http://www.decodedscience.com/modal-log ... ists/38801
/ October 31, 2013 /
====…
One problem.
" Both Gödel and Euclid Used Axioms and Logic"
And from one of Euclidian axiom the Non-Euclidian
(Lobachevsky, Bolyai, Riemann) geometry was created.
===…
Ginkgo
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by Ginkgo »

socratus wrote:Gödel’s Proof that God Exists
==..
How Modal Logic Proved Gödel was Right, and God Exists
/ October 31, 2013 by Mike DeHaan /
A recent headline claimed that Computer Scientists
‘Prove’ God Exists. What is the real story beneath the headline?
Who wrote the proof?
How did the scientists prove that God exists?
Finally – just what is “modal logic”?

Gödel’s Proof that God Exists

Christoph Benzmüller and Bruno W Paleo wrote a brief article
describing the verification of Kurt Gödel’s proof of God’s existence.
- - - - - - - -
Both Gödel and Euclid Used Axioms and Logic
- - - - - - - -
What is Modal Logic?
Modal logic deals with statements, or propositions, that express
“possibility” and “necessity.”

Many of us are more familiar with less expressive
“propositional logic,” limited to “if something exists” or
“if all somethings have this property.”

Benzmüller and Paleo’s paper states that they used several different
modal logic systems to verify Gödel’s proof.
Those are different logic systems, not just different computer programs
- - - - - - - -
http://www.decodedscience.com/modal-log ... ists/38801
/ October 31, 2013 /
====…
One problem.
" Both Gödel and Euclid Used Axioms and Logic"
And from one of Euclidian axiom the Non-Euclidian
(Lobachevsky, Bolyai, Riemann) geometry was created.
===…
Godel's Proof is a version of the ontological argument. With ontological arguments one needs to accept from the beginning that the properties of God's existence necessitate his existence.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by Arising_uk »

socratus wrote:...
Those are different logic systems, not just different computer programs
...
Given we can code ATP's for these then they are different computer programs.
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socratus
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by socratus »

Ginkgo wrote:
socratus wrote:Gödel’s Proof that God Exists
==..
How Modal Logic Proved Gödel was Right, and God Exists
/ October 31, 2013 by Mike DeHaan /
A recent headline claimed that Computer Scientists
‘Prove’ God Exists. What is the real story beneath the headline?
Who wrote the proof?
How did the scientists prove that God exists?
Finally – just what is “modal logic”?

Gödel’s Proof that God Exists

Christoph Benzmüller and Bruno W Paleo wrote a brief article
describing the verification of Kurt Gödel’s proof of God’s existence.
- - - - - - - -
Both Gödel and Euclid Used Axioms and Logic
- - - - - - - -
What is Modal Logic?
Modal logic deals with statements, or propositions, that express
“possibility” and “necessity.”

Many of us are more familiar with less expressive
“propositional logic,” limited to “if something exists” or
“if all somethings have this property.”

Benzmüller and Paleo’s paper states that they used several different
modal logic systems to verify Gödel’s proof.
Those are different logic systems, not just different computer programs
- - - - - - - -
http://www.decodedscience.com/modal-log ... ists/38801
/ October 31, 2013 /
====…
One problem.
" Both Gödel and Euclid Used Axioms and Logic"
And from one of Euclidian axiom the Non-Euclidian
(Lobachevsky, Bolyai, Riemann) geometry was created.
===…
Godel's Proof is a version of the ontological argument.
With ontological arguments one needs to accept from the beginning
that the properties of God's existence necessitate his existence.
It is like:
" If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
/ Voltaire /
Ginkgo
Posts: 2657
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by Ginkgo »

socratus wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:
socratus wrote:Gödel’s Proof that God Exists
==..
How Modal Logic Proved Gödel was Right, and God Exists
/ October 31, 2013 by Mike DeHaan /
A recent headline claimed that Computer Scientists
‘Prove’ God Exists. What is the real story beneath the headline?
Who wrote the proof?
How did the scientists prove that God exists?
Finally – just what is “modal logic”?

Gödel’s Proof that God Exists

Christoph Benzmüller and Bruno W Paleo wrote a brief article
describing the verification of Kurt Gödel’s proof of God’s existence.
- - - - - - - -
Both Gödel and Euclid Used Axioms and Logic
- - - - - - - -
What is Modal Logic?
Modal logic deals with statements, or propositions, that express
“possibility” and “necessity.”

Many of us are more familiar with less expressive
“propositional logic,” limited to “if something exists” or
“if all somethings have this property.”

Benzmüller and Paleo’s paper states that they used several different
modal logic systems to verify Gödel’s proof.
Those are different logic systems, not just different computer programs
- - - - - - - -
http://www.decodedscience.com/modal-log ... ists/38801
/ October 31, 2013 /
====…
One problem.
" Both Gödel and Euclid Used Axioms and Logic"
And from one of Euclidian axiom the Non-Euclidian
(Lobachevsky, Bolyai, Riemann) geometry was created.
===…
Godel's Proof is a version of the ontological argument.
With ontological arguments one needs to accept from the beginning
that the properties of God's existence necessitate his existence.
It is like:
" If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
/ Voltaire /

A good point, but I think it creates more problems than it solves. That problem being the extent to which we are willing to designate attributes to a wide range of natural phenomenon, aka "God of the gaps"
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socratus
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by socratus »

@Ginkgo
Today we try to understand ( natural phenomenon aka
"God of the gaps") by probability theory. But . . .
"With enough probability theory, you can prove that anything
exists and does not exist by just changing a few assumptions."

And the probabilities to create planet Earth + reasonable, logical
living beings is very limited.
Can the limited math/physical laws, formulas, equations solve the problem
(of natural phenomenon, aka "God of the gaps") ?
==..
Ginkgo
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by Ginkgo »

socratus wrote:@Ginkgo
Today we try to understand ( natural phenomenon aka
"God of the gaps") by probability theory. But . . .
"With enough probability theory, you can prove that anything
exists and does not exist by just changing a few assumptions."

And the probabilities to create planet Earth + reasonable, logical
living beings is very limited.
Can the limited math/physical laws, formulas, equations solve the problem
(of natural phenomenon, aka "God of the gaps") ?
==..
History of science has show us that God is continually being squeezed out of the equation at an ever increasing rate. At this stage of scientific advancement God is feeling this squeeze even more (metaphorically speaking). However,it is another question as to whether God will be squeezed out altogether someway down the epistemological track. In the end we are talking about science versus metaphysics. Probability is tool of science, not a tool of metaphysics.
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socratus
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by socratus »

Ginkgo wrote:
socratus wrote:@Ginkgo
Today we try to understand ( natural phenomenon aka
"God of the gaps") by probability theory. But . . .
"With enough probability theory, you can prove that anything
exists and does not exist by just changing a few assumptions."

And the probabilities to create planet Earth + reasonable, logical
living beings is very limited.
Can the limited math/physical laws, formulas, equations solve the problem
(of natural phenomenon, aka "God of the gaps") ?
==..
History of science has show us that God is continually being
squeezed out of the equation at an ever increasing rate.
Newton, Leibniz, Kant . . . were deists.
Is "Deism" dead ?
===
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Arising_uk
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by Arising_uk »

socratus wrote:...
Kant . . . were deists.
...
===
Kant was a Deist?
Ginkgo
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by Ginkgo »

socratus wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:
socratus wrote:@Ginkgo
Today we try to understand ( natural phenomenon aka
"God of the gaps") by probability theory. But . . .
"With enough probability theory, you can prove that anything
exists and does not exist by just changing a few assumptions."

And the probabilities to create planet Earth + reasonable, logical
living beings is very limited.
Can the limited math/physical laws, formulas, equations solve the problem
(of natural phenomenon, aka "God of the gaps") ?
==..
History of science has show us that God is continually being
squeezed out of the equation at an ever increasing rate.
Newton, Leibniz, Kant . . . were deists.
Is "Deism" dead ?
===

No, I don't think Deism is dead, but I have problems with the creation aspect. If you are saying that God is an emergent property of a hugely complex universe then you have got my attention.
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socratus
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by socratus »

@Ginkgo
God is an emergent property of a hugely complex universe . . . . . .
so-called "human beings" according to their traditions and cultures.
=..
Questionmark
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Re: Mathematics / Physics / Quantum theory and God / Gods.

Post by Questionmark »

Yeah, a dollar bill and in God we trust I find almost as hyprocital as an extreme islamist saying insha'Allah..
Ginkgo wrote: No, I don't think Deism is dead, but I have problems with the creation aspect. If you are saying that God is an emergent property of a hugely complex universe then you have got my attention.
Life itslef is magical in many ways, from sunlight to food, through a complex process into energy to move, to think, to feel and to live. What the unconscious is compared to what our conscious part is in all our existence, is like the energy recalling a memory compared to all as one. Just try to get your head around biochemy from a quantum view resulting in neuroscience, consiciousness, determinism, etc, some how in between times. (Which again leads to socialism economics politics ethics culture etc, not tot mention all from an astronomic perspective)

I don't decide my hair grows, nor do I have to give effort to heal a small wound. The process of reproducing in every part of nature is as magical as what ever the origin was. All the fauna and flora closing the perfect circle of oxygen and carbon dioxide..

But yeah that's just in my opinion.. Still, all the useless bullshit in this world is the different side, perhaps mankind just hit puberty and the pointless stuborness will slowly start to fade any day soon now..


Anyhow, this is more interesting:

The whole periodic table of elements captures all the different materials in their smallest of being as they are existing. Most you just find in nature and some are made by men, but they all have something in common..

Take the first one, an hydrogen atom.
It's made up out one proton and no neutrons as the centre and one electron orbitting around.

Now if you add one proton and electron, you get in the centre two protons along with two neutrons and two negative charges orbittong in opposite direction around it, an helium atom

I guess nothing new here for most, but if more electrons come into play they orbit further away, till eight electrons fill the next shell and so on.. And every time an outher shell is full you get one of the six noble gasses, who again all react alike eachother.


Like this there are numerous of other rather 'amazing coincidences', not beacuase science made this up, but just because this atom wants to do that, may God know why, and the funny thing eventually is, all seems to be made up of one and the same against some static-ish background called 'vacuum' where magnetic fields and quantum fluctuations also can be very interesting..

There only remains one big empty shelf here, considering time.. Maybe that is the shared dimension, maybe its God or perhaps it isnt even real.. But till proven otherwise the God of the wonders, remains to exist, and there are many wonders..
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