consciousness aint fuzzy

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Ginkgo
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Re: consciousness aint fuzzy

Post by Ginkgo »

Blaggard wrote:
String theory has nothing to do with the particle theory, in fact it suggests the simple case of particle and wave is wrong and that there are subsets of sub atomics that are neither. It in fact states that there are these larger particles but they are governed by strings which are tiny immeasurable particles that govern these larger particles, which appear to have wave like and particle behaviours but in fact do not conform to the underlying structure of physics that strings suggest. This seems to me like you don't really get string theory.
You obviously know more about it than I do. But isn't that the whole point?

I don't criticize string theory because my understanding is inadequate.

How does Wanderlinglands provide a criticism of something he doesn't understand?
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WanderingLands
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Re: consciousness aint fuzzy

Post by WanderingLands »

Ginkgo wrote: I would think this needs a fair bot of elaboration. Many dimensions is not necessarily the same as multiverse, so they don't necessarily go together. In the same way I would have thought there would be a need for a lot of elaboration when it comes to many worlds and multiverse.
Multiple universes have been hypothesized in cosmology, physics, astronomy, religion, philosophy, transpersonal psychology and fiction, particularly in science fiction and fantasy. In these contexts, parallel universes are also called "alternative universes", "quantum universes", "interpenetrating dimensions", "parallel dimensions", "parallel worlds", "alternative realities", "alternative timelines", and "dimensional planes," among others. The term 'multiverse' was coined in 1895 by the American philosopher and psychologist William James in a different context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
We all consider dimensions in general terms such as another reality or how we perceive the environment around us. However this is only a fraction of what dimensions really are. First off what we understand about dimensions in best described by physics.

Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/48619/10-d ... z36eXjOP2h
Evidences showing how modern physics erroneously uses 'dimension' and 'world' interchangeably.
Ginkgo wrote: What is "superimposition" do you mean superposition?
Yes, that's what I meant.
Ginkgo wrote: In my limited understanding of string theory, one of the main aims was to get rid of the point particle idea.
Well, there are certainly 'more particles' than there are today, apparently according to the scientific establishment. Another weak ad hoc theory that does nothing to make sense of the world.
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WanderingLands
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Re: consciousness aint fuzzy

Post by WanderingLands »

Blaggard wrote: I missed this, no you won't look at it, in fact I can be completely sure that you didn't.

You know how acadeamia and science is from what? Reading pop science? Or actually knowing any scientists? Seems to me the former is more likely. You should know that pop science is like tabloid journalism, about as accurate a means to test where a subject is at, as wonkey table is a good means to keep your best china stable.

I didn't use open mind in that manner, I explained that being open means knowing you are wrong to start with, but knowing that the game is a foot, and if fair action be brought, you may achieve something approaching something right. This is how all the scientists I know behave if they are not going to find it hard to get on in science. I can say it again if you like but the fact that being well aware you are not well aware is the starting place for science. It is not the starting place for people who just know how it all works by default, without actually knowing how it works at all. Seems you fit that category.

This is a fairly simple concept, if you want me to explain it again, please feel free to tell me your superiority and knowledge on a subject and an institution and who and from whom and all the people you base this on in science.
You can repeat it whenever you want, just as uwot and Ginko keep reminding me to not mix metaphysics with science, even though that is what I am doing to bring about a more holistic concept of the universe.
Blaggard wrote: You need to elaborate this in and of itself means little. It's like saying it is wrong without saying why as was already said by Gingko.

According to how you observe the particle it behaves like a wave or a particle, it's no use saying it's just not like that when it is like that.
It's quite ironic that you ask me for more explanation, as you reinforce the concept of a 'wave-particle' duality without the evidence yourself. You can definitely see, from watching videos and doing it yourself (as in using water to do it), that there is no 'particle' mechanism to the matter and light. What you really see, especially when using water, are in fact spherical standing waves that resonate in the water, which represents 'more energy', depending on how it's applied to things besides water (ie. maybe sound). The "double slit experiment" shows interconnecting flow of energy and repeated resonance; thus the particle theory is thrown out and so does the 'duality'.
Blaggard wrote: Again this is vague it doesn't really say anything about actual experiment or the actual 2 slit experiments, it's an opinion without any real meat on its bones.

The uncertainty principle is objective in that it is basically saying you can't be subjective: if you measure something a margin of error will be created by observing a system leaving subjectivity arguable at best. All we can objectively know (such as it is) is what we measure, being subjective is pointless.
The Uncertainty Principle states that one cannot know precisely both the position and momentum of the particle; therefore rejecting objectivity is favor or more subjectivity, hence the synonymous term "Uncertainty" Principle.

Looking at my other point above, you would see that the Uncertainty Principle is clearly a misunderstanding of the actual results of the Double-Slit Experiment; that it is clearly 'waves' and no such particles, which is mainly because of wanting to still uphold the particle theory.
Blaggard wrote: String theory has nothing to do with the particle theory, in fact it suggests the simple case of particle and wave is wrong and that there are subsets of sub atomics that are neither. It in fact states that there are these larger particles but they are governed by strings which are tiny immeasurable particles that govern these larger particles, which appear to have wave like and particle behaviours but in fact do not conform to the underlying structure of physics that strings suggest. This seems to me like you don't really get string theory.

I think it's fanciful nonsense, but I think I have more of a reason to think so. No means to ultimately judge but at least some means to reason on it.
It would certainly still make since to throw out the particle theory, which means you can solve this 'crisis' without using String Theory, because it doesn't seem to throw out the particle theory, or the 'wave-particle' duality, and it seems to create more smaller particles out of the already small basic atomic particles, such as bosons and other such abstractions.
Ginkgo
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Re: consciousness aint fuzzy

Post by Ginkgo »

WanderingLands wrote:
Ginkgo wrote: I would think this needs a fair bot of elaboration. Many dimensions is not necessarily the same as multiverse, so they don't necessarily go together. In the same way I would have thought there would be a need for a lot of elaboration when it comes to many worlds and multiverse.
Multiple universes have been hypothesized in cosmology, physics, astronomy, religion, philosophy, transpersonal psychology and fiction, particularly in science fiction and fantasy. In these contexts, parallel universes are also called "alternative universes", "quantum universes", "interpenetrating dimensions", "parallel dimensions", "parallel worlds", "alternative realities", "alternative timelines", and "dimensional planes," among others. The term 'multiverse' was coined in 1895 by the American philosopher and psychologist William James in a different context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
We all consider dimensions in general terms such as another reality or how we perceive the environment around us. However this is only a fraction of what dimensions really are. First off what we understand about dimensions in best described by physics.

Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/48619/10-d ... z36eXjOP2h
Evidences showing how modern physics erroneously uses 'dimension' and 'world' interchangeably.
Ginkgo wrote: What is "superimposition" do you mean superposition?
Yes, that's what I meant.
Ginkgo wrote: In my limited understanding of string theory, one of the main aims was to get rid of the point particle idea.
Well, there are certainly 'more particles' than there are today, apparently according to the scientific establishment. Another weak ad hoc theory that does nothing to make sense of the world.

You would need to point this out to me I read the links. The only thing is saw was the linking of "dimensions" and "reality"


There may well be more particles, but you equated particle theory with string theory. That was the error I was pointing out.
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WanderingLands
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Re: consciousness aint fuzzy

Post by WanderingLands »

Ginkgo wrote: You would need to point this out to me I read the links. The only thing is saw was the linking of "dimensions" and "reality"


There may well be more particles, but you equated particle theory with string theory. That was the error I was pointing out.
It is quite really humorous to see you, uwot, and Blaggard, stoop yourselves low to making very weak one-sentenced responses. Until you actually start presenting real evidence, instead of just repeating mantras like there's no tomorrow, then I might as well ignore you three. However, I shall proceed on to point out your errors.

It is very clear in the quotes in these articles, and the overall content of the articles themselves, that they equate 'dimensions' and 'realities', with lack of grammatical understanding of those two words (dimension means "measurement" or "quantity", while reality is about what is real, ie. this universe).

Also, I did not simply equate particle theory with string theory; I pointed out that it was a failed attempt to try and reconcile particle theory and wave theory by saying that everything is made up of strings, which is the equivalent of looking into the universal force instead of looking to particles to explain the forces in the Universe.
Ginkgo
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Re: consciousness aint fuzzy

Post by Ginkgo »

WanderingLands wrote:
Also, I did not simply equate particle theory with string theory; I pointed out that it was a failed attempt to try and reconcile particle theory and wave theory by saying that everything is made up of strings, which is the equivalent of looking into the universal force instead of looking to particles to explain the forces in the Universe.
That's not what you said at all. Have another look at your quote. Here it is in part.

Wanderinglands quote:

3) String theory. Now is still trying to hold up the particle theory instead of forgoing it, the scientists, or theoreticians came up with the idea of string theory.

As far as I can see string theory doesn't attempt to reconcile wave/particle measurement problem. Perhaps you can point out how it does.
Ginkgo
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Re: consciousness aint fuzzy

Post by Ginkgo »

WanderingLands wrote:
Ginkgo wrote: You would need to point this out to me I read the links. The only thing is saw was the linking of "dimensions" and "reality"


There may well be more particles, but you equated particle theory with string theory. That was the error I was pointing out.
It is quite really humorous to see you, uwot, and Blaggard, stoop yourselves low to making very weak one-sentenced responses. Until you actually start presenting real evidence, instead of just repeating mantras like there's no tomorrow, then I might as well ignore you three. However, I shall proceed on to point out your errors.

It is very clear in the quotes in these articles, and the overall content of the articles themselves, that they equate 'dimensions' and 'realities', with lack of grammatical understanding of those two words (dimension means "measurement" or "quantity", while reality is about what is real, ie. this universe).

Also, I did not simply equate particle theory with string theory; I pointed out that it was a failed attempt to try and reconcile particle theory and wave theory by saying that everything is made up of strings, which is the equivalent of looking into the universal force instead of looking to particles to explain the forces in the Universe.
Ginkgo
Posts: 2657
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: consciousness aint fuzzy

Post by Ginkgo »

WanderingLands wrote:
It is quite really humorous to see you, uwot, and Blaggard, stoop yourselves low to making very weak one-sentenced responses. Until you actually start presenting real evidence, instead of just repeating mantras like there's no tomorrow, then I might as well ignore you three. However, I shall proceed on to point out your errors.
Very generous of you to donate your time and effort. I look forward to gaining a better understanding of string theory and quantum mechanics, I am sure you have a better understanding in relation to these matters.
Wanderinglands wrote:
It is very clear in the quotes in these articles, and the overall content of the articles themselves, that they equate 'dimensions' and 'realities', with lack of grammatical understanding of those two words (dimension means "measurement" or "quantity", while reality is about what is real, ie. this universe).


Sorry about the short response, but...this clarifies the multiverse dimension distinction?
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