Philosophy Now Forum

Thankyou all for clarifying your position on this subject, it makes it much easier to determine how to respond.

thedoc wrote:You need to spend some time observing eastern US white tale deer. The smart ones avoid humans and survive, the dumb ones are the ones that run out on the highway or aren't aware of the presence of hunters, and should be removed from the gene pool.

Hmm...I'd agree with this if the hunters were actually hunting in a way that allowed the natural senses to work, so bows and arrows, knives, etc but high-powered rifles with scopes? Seems a touch unfair to the deer to blame them for this.

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.GREAT post.

Thank you for having the balls and the brains to articulate the one rather intelligent response to my thread..

As usual you mean the one you agree with. I note that you've not responded to mine with respect to the economic and employment issue you tacked onto to wildlife issue. I also note that you've not responded to the obvious explanation for why these deer do need to be culled, one that pretty much makes your claim that it's all about value in a capitalist society a nonsense that you only introduced to get on to your pet subject of closed-shop american unionism.

Arising_uk wrote:

thedoc wrote:You need to spend some time observing eastern US white tale deer. The smart ones avoid humans and survive, the dumb ones are the ones that run out on the highway or aren't aware of the presence of hunters, and should be removed from the gene pool.

Hmm...I'd agree with this if the hunters were actually hunting in a way that allowed the natural senses to work, so bows and arrows, knives, etc but high-powered rifles with scopes? Seems a touch unfair to the deer to blame them for this.

If hunting were to revert to Bow and arrow, knives, or spears, there would be a lot more deer that would be wounded and run off to die or live crippled. The high powered rifle with a scope is to allow a quick clean kill, not a wounding. The underlying purpose of hunting is not sport, but to reduce the number of deer and control the population. Granted, most hunters don't know this, but they are not the authority issuing the license to take a deer. The license issued and the length of the season is based on the size of the herd and how many deer need to be removed. If the deer could control it's own population, there would be no need for hunting, but nature allows them to produce as many offspring as possible to off set those taken by predators, and now man is that predator. You don't like hunting as it is done now, simply eliminate the deer herd altogether and there will be no need to hunt them.

There is more to the senses than just sight, smell, and hearing, sometimes there is just a feeling that someone else is there. I've talked to a lot of hunters and sometimes a deer, or other game, will just spook and run for no apparent reason.

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Wow...you cut me off at the pass..., you only introduced to get on to your pet subject of closed-shop american unionism



If you were a hunter and I was a deer, you just dropped me.



Good post?




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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ... I am aware of the horrible things going on in the world, but I still don't want to see things that are going to give me nightmares for the rest of my life. People need to be a bit careful what they post without warning.

I know, and feel the same way. I open Bill's thread - if I open them all - with trepidation. Someone new might be shocked. But I think they'll get over it; it's not as if ugly stuff were generally unavailable on the internet.

thedoc:
There is more to the senses than just sight, smell, and hearing, sometimes there is just a feeling that someone else is there. I've talked to a lot of hunters and sometimes a deer, or other game, will just spook and run for no apparent reason.

So now, in order not to be blamed for some armed thug shooting him, a deer has not only to be super-smart and super-fast, but psychic, as well?

thedoc wrote:...
If hunting were to revert to Bow and arrow, knives, or spears, there would be a lot more deer that would be wounded and run off to die or live crippled. The high powered rifle with a scope is to allow a quick clean kill, not a wounding. The underlying purpose of hunting is not sport, but to reduce the number of deer and control the population. Granted, most hunters don't know this, but they are not the authority issuing the license to take a deer. The license issued and the length of the season is based on the size of the herd and how many deer need to be removed. If the deer could control it's own population, there would be no need for hunting, but nature allows them to produce as many offspring as possible to off set those taken by predators, and now man is that predator. You don't like hunting as it is done now, simply eliminate the deer herd altogether and there will be no need to hunt them. ...

Or maybe just those with the skills would be allowed to hunt rather than any yahoo with the money to buy a gun and scope. But did I say I disagreed with the culling idea?

There is more to the senses than just sight, smell, and hearing, sometimes there is just a feeling that someone else is there. I've talked to a lot of hunters and sometimes a deer, or other game, will just spook and run for no apparent reason.

Well none that the human can conceive of but given that game has to survive by running I'd guess that any disturbance in the environment that their senses notice may cause a spook.

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I love hunting...It's the only sport where only one team knows it's playing.




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It's as if you are going on - doing your daily routine and someone blows your fucking head off as you are getting into your car.


I don't mind hunting. Just don't call it a sport. Call it what it is...Target practice.





Oh, and more to the subject; It's no accident that Americans are being striped of the last remaining shreds of meat left on our bones. Thank you naked capitalism.



It's also no accident that we are being given free access to firearms. We'll be allowed to blow each other's heads off soon as we realize that we have lost everything... And again - Thank you naked capitalism.


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Arising_uk wrote:

thedoc wrote:...

There is more to the senses than just sight, smell, and hearing, sometimes there is just a feeling that someone else is there. I've talked to a lot of hunters and sometimes a deer, or other game, will just spook and run for no apparent reason.

Well none that the human can conceive of but given that game has to survive by running I'd guess that any disturbance in the environment that their senses notice may cause a spook.

Yes, that's the safe thing, reduce everything to what you can see and measure, don't leave anything that could be beyond your understanding. If that were the best thing to do, I would reject Quantum Physics, most of astronomy, and all of history that happened before I was born, just to name a few.

NIH. so it doesn't exist.

thedoc wrote:Yes, that's the safe thing, reduce everything to what you can see and measure, don't leave anything that could be beyond your understanding. If that were the best thing to do, I would reject Quantum Physics, most of astronomy, and all of history that happened before I was born, just to name a few.

And yet QP and Astronomy is all about what we can see and measure and history is in the books?

NIH. so it doesn't exist.

Better than making-up super-natural causes.

Did I doubt that these hunters noticed these events, no. What I doubted was your implication, as such behaviour from animals is more simply explained as their nature to spook at anything that changes in their environment as if they didn't they'd not be long for the stomach. So the presence of hunters in the area may well cause a change in the other animals in the area which the animal can sense, etc. That the hunter can't sense it but does notice the occasional correlation does not lead to the necessary conclusion of some 'spooky' sense. Ockham still seems a fair rule.

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Your unconscious is bellowing at you Bill.

Good eatin'.

'nuff said.

assuming sane wildlife management hunting for food is something that even vegetarians should approve of

if you buy tofu, this tofu was grown in a field - and this field was fertilized and the tofu plants were harvest by machinery - and then driven around in diesel guzzling trucks that run over groundhogs - so eating tofu might result in fewer animals deaths that eating beef but it does come with a cost

but if you shoot a deer - there is no environmental load at all - well, maybe there is in the manufacture of the gun and ammo and so forth - but the load on the environment and thus animal deaths are going to be pretty low

in my area we are overrun with feral hogs - and with every hog killed we save multiple animal lives (including endangered species) - so hunting them is intrinsically good from ethical vegetarian viewpoint. also they taste really good as long as you take ur time tenderizing and cooking the meat

a neighbour of ukranian ancestry showed me how to make meat jelly out of their bones - seriously delicious stuff!

also, if hunting feral hogs, do not use an AR-15 (aka M16). the bullets will just bounce off them . ok not really but they wont necessarily stop them either - in any case the kill will be messy and not very humane

my brother got himself an AK47 and it seems to do the job nicely

my great uncle does not believe in semi automatic or automatic weapons since there is nothing about them in the Bible. but a bolt action Winchester 338 caliber seems to do the trick for him

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They have no voice; they cannot speak to us.


They have no value in a capitalistic society. Apart from their skin and gamy meat; they cannot do work for us. In that way they are useless.


Now, I look to America and Americans in this new one world wide company town.



As Americans, more and more of us are realizing that we have no voice.

Oh, we still have elections, but the things that are really important we no longer have a real choice.



As the average American worker we have no value in this new one world wide company town capitalistic society. Apart from regurgitating information and creating entertainment cannot do work for the world. We cannot create real things, items to support ourselves. In that way we are useless.



In that way we are much like feral hogs or deer; American deer...



Shoot on.



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