Philosophy Now Forum

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Hjarloprillar wrote:No. I observe.
Show me valid military targets in Dresden. Show me reason FB's strafed civ refugees.
Nazism was blot on soul of humanity.
And there are always apologists like you who say Dresden wasn't so bad.

And yet you do not retract your numbers thereby propagating the Nazi myth?

According to this http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 81992.html the figure was about the equivalent or less of London's toll.

I don't disagree that Dresden was a brutality but you forget the context, that the Nazis had destroyed or damaged a million homes during the London Blitz, that they thought nothing of using hi-ex and incendiaries upon a civilian population in an effort to crush their will to fight. I do decry the children who died but you forget that the adults of Dresden were, like most of their fellow countrymen, fervent Nazis who thought nothing of the disappearance of the handicapped, homosexual, Jew, et al from their midst. That they had nothing but praise and support for their 'brave boys' cleansing the East of the sub-human.

You mention Nuremberg but this was a sop as at the end of the war we could(should?) have executed anything from three to five million Germans for their part in Nazi war-crimes but we just didn't have the will anymore or maybe the Yank was too scared of the Soviet.

Arising_uk wrote:

Hjarloprillar wrote:No. I observe.
Show me valid military targets in Dresden. Show me reason FB's strafed civ refugees.
Nazism was blot on soul of humanity.
And there are always apologists like you who say Dresden wasn't so bad.

And yet you do not retract your numbers thereby propagating the Nazi myth?

According to this http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 81992.html the figure was about the equivalent or less of London's toll.

I don't disagree that Dresden was a brutality but you forget the context, that the Nazis had destroyed or damaged a million homes during the London Blitz, that they thought nothing of using hi-ex and incendiaries upon a civilian population in an effort to crush their will to fight. I do decry the children who died but you forget that the adults of Dresden were, like most of their fellow countrymen, fervent Nazis who thought nothing of the disappearance of the handicapped, homosexual, Jew, et al from their midst. That they had nothing but praise and support for their 'brave boys' cleansing the East of the sub-human.

You mention Nuremberg but this was a sop as at the end of the war we could(should?) have executed anything from three to five million Germans for their part in Nazi war-crimes but we just didn't have the will anymore or maybe the Yank was too scared of the Soviet.

How do you know the adults were fervent nazis? This sort of bullshit justifies any atrocity you can think of.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:...
How do you know the adults were fervent nazis? This sort of bullshit justifies any atrocity you can think of.

I know its common to think that Nazi Germany was a minority-led nation of cowed liberal sheep but it wasn't. We could(should) have tried and probably executed over three million Germans at the end of the war but just couldn't face the effort, so we had the show trials instead.

I accept that the bombing was just revenge and designed to cow and that the children were victims but then I listened to my grandfathers who thought, "Tough! Those who live by the sword die by the sword". You think the people of Dresden, if the Nazi had won, would have been soul-searching the Blitz?

Hjarloprillar wrote:Show me valid military targets in Dresden.

Britain had bombed and been bombed by Germany in World War 1, so while I would agree that they are not 'valid', civilians had for some time been military targets. The German and Italian command had given a more up to date example of strategic civilian bombing in Guernica on 26 April, 1937.
I live in west London and sometimes work in the East end around the old docks, the contrast is stark. Where I live there is the occasional gap in terrace where an isolated bomb my have strayed. In the east end there is the occasional pre-war building amongst miles and miles cheap buildings throw up in a hurry to house the thousands of survivors whose homes were dust.
At the time of the Dresden bombing, London had been targeted by V1 'doodlebugs' for several months. My mother was terrified of them, which was the aim, because you could hear them coming. If you heard them go overhead, you knew that you at least were safe from that one. If the engine stopped though, it was coming down somewhere near you. She wasn't scared of V2s however, there was no point. If one of those had your name on it, you wouldn't know anything about it. The RAF had developed the technique of intercepting V1s and tipping there wings which was a boost to morale more than an effective strategy, but people were completely defenceless against V2s and they knew it. The feeling was that Dresden was an attempt to show that we could hit back, but according to at least one person who actually was present, as many people were shocked that we could do such a thing, we being so much more civilised than Nazis, as were triumphant that the other side were being blown to smithereens for no good reason.
War might make interesting reading, but dying for nothing isn't fun.

Arising_uk wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:...
How do you know the adults were fervent nazis? This sort of bullshit justifies any atrocity you can think of.

I know its common to think that Nazi Germany was a minority-led nation of cowed liberal sheep but it wasn't. We could(should) have tried and probably executed over three million Germans at the end of the war but just couldn't face the effort, so we had the show trials instead.

I accept that the bombing was just revenge and designed to cow and that the children were victims but then I listened to my grandfathers who thought, "Tough! Those who live by the sword die by the sword". You think the people of Dresden, if the Nazi had won, would have been soul-searching the Blitz?

I don't know and neither do you. Dresden was full of children and ordinary people just going about their business. There is also the fact that it was a beautiful place full of history that belonged to all humanity. I doubt if there would have been a WW11 at all if Germany hadn't been bled dry by the allies as punishment for WW1, and no one knows what the fuck WW1 was all about either, just a squabble between European royal families as far as I can tell, and a chance for arms manufacturers to make a lot of money. It's not difficult to brain-wash people into going to war. Those in power only have to throw around the word 'patriotism' to do that. I would say that very few, if not none of the guys sent away in to die in WW1 knew what the hell they were dying and killing for.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Dresden was full of children and ordinary people just going about their business. There is also the fact that it was a beautiful place full of history that belonged to all humanity.

Well, the latter seems a minor point compared to the children and ordinary people, but the same was true of Coventry.

uwot wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Dresden was full of children and ordinary people just going about their business. There is also the fact that it was a beautiful place full of history that belonged to all humanity.

Well, the latter seems a minor point compared to the children and ordinary people, but the same was true of Coventry.

It's difficult to live with no buildings to live in. It's also the wanton destruction that makes me sick about war. Two wrongs don't make a right. I doubt if any of the Dresden dead and maimed would have been responsible for Coventry.

Two wrongs don't make a right, a war crime by any other name would smell like shit.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I don't know and neither do you.

I can take a good guess given it'd have been the Third Reich.

Dresden was full of children and ordinary people just going about their business.

Yup, breeding good little brown-shirts for the cause. You completely ignore that Nazism was tres popular amongst the folk.

There is also the fact that it was a beautiful place full of history that belonged to all humanity.

Please! You think that all of humanity would have been allowed to share in it?

I doubt if there would have been a WW11 at all if Germany hadn't been bled dry by the allies as punishment for WW1, and no one knows what the fuck WW1 was all about either, just a squabble between European royal families as far as I can tell, and a chance for arms manufacturers to make a lot of money. ...

Well that and imperialism and nationalism and expansionism and opportunism by the various factions. But in the main Britain was dragged into WWI due to honouring alliances, much as it was in WWII. In both cases to fight the invading Germans. Can't disagree that the French Ruhr reparations went on for too long and caused much resentment but then again the invasions weren't a picnic for those on the receiving end. In the main tho' WWI was waiting to happen as if you put the bulk of your male populations into uniform then it'd be a waste not to use them.

It's not difficult to brain-wash people into going to war. Those in power only have to throw around the word 'patriotism' to do that. I would say that very few, if not none of the guys sent away in to die in WW1 knew what the hell they were dying and killing for.

Maybe so but the Brits said they were doing it to stop the Kraut and the Kraut thought they were doing it for the glory of the Fatherland.

Arising_uk wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I don't know and neither do you.

I can take a good guess given it'd have been the Third Reich.

Dresden was full of children and ordinary people just going about their business.

Yup, breeding good little brown-shirts for the cause. You completely ignore that Nazism was tres popular amongst the folk.

I'm not sure where to begin. The third reich what? What do you mean 'share in it'? I assume you are British. What is with this bullshit poppy-wearing of every z-list celebrity on British television?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I'm not sure where to begin.

Try the beginning.

The third reich what?

You said I couldn't know that if the Nazis had won they'd not have been soul-searching about the Blitz, I say that given their dream was the Third Reich I could make a good guess as to the nature of their society and it doesn't involve much sympathy for its conquered.

What do you mean 'share in it'?

You said that Dresden was a loss to humanity, I said that I doubt if the Nazis had won they'd have been sharing it as they thought much of humanity sub-human.

I assume you are British. ...

You assume correctly although to be accurate I'm English as only the foreigner says they are British when they are.

What is with this bullshit poppy-wearing of every z-list celebrity on British television?

As you say, bullshit.

Arising_uk wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I'm not sure where to begin.

Try the beginning.

The third reich what?

You said I couldn't know that if the Nazis had won they'd not have been soul-searching about the Blitz, I say that given their dream was the Third Reich I could make a good guess as to the nature of their society and it doesn't involve much sympathy for its conquered.

What do you mean 'share in it'?

You said that Dresden was a loss to humanity, I said that I doubt if the Nazis had won they'd have been sharing it as they thought much of humanity sub-human.

I assume you are British. ...

You assume correctly although to be accurate I'm English as only the foreigner says they are British when they are.

What is with this bullshit poppy-wearing of every z-list celebrity on British television?

As you say, bullshit.

You said the people of Dresden. All those children were Nazis? You are dehumanising people. That's what war is all about. Dehumanising people into generalised lumps.

UK Arising I say English, but I didn't know which part of the UK you come from.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:It's difficult to live with no buildings to live in.

It even harder if bits of you are spread over what used to be buildings.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:It's also the wanton destruction that makes me sick about war.

Well, yes; war hasn't really got much going for it. You can, however rebuild; Dresden is now recognisably the city it was before the atrocity. The victims, though, remain dead.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Two wrongs don't make a right.

What did I say that makes you think I think they do?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I doubt if any of the Dresden dead and maimed would have been responsible for Coventry.

Indeed. It is possible to remove the bombing of Dresden from any context and see it as an isolated act of utter lunacy, but that isn't what happened. I wouldn't argue that it was justified, but there are circumstances that might be considered in mitigation. Germany was developing all sorts of new and interesting ways of killing people on industrial scales. It was only just prevented from developing an atomic bomb by six very brave Norwegians. They had developed cruise and ballistic missiles and were working on enhancing their range. The allies knew what this meant, most were Imperial powers that had gained the empire by exploiting technological advantages; in the case of Australia for instance, the artillery at the disposal of the invaders met almost no resistance from blokes armed with loin clothes and sticks. The Germans had missed the empire building boat and were keen to catch up. Hitler apparently didn't think of Britain as a natural enemy and according to some sources, thought we could carve up the planet between us. Edward VIII apparently agreed, as did Oswald Moseley. It's probably a good thing they weren't listened to, certainly if you are Jewish, Gypsy, homosexual, handicapped; in fact anything but blue eyed, blond and in perfect physical and mental health.
Dresden was horrific, but they were horrific times.