Philosophy Now Forum

bobevenson wrote: I base my statement on

good for you we all do in some way, right?
I choose to believe what i want to believe, because, well.. who knows?

You are obviously not receptive to the words of a prophet.

bobevenson wrote: I base my statement on the Church of Ouzo website (http://church-of-ouzo.com) "The pathway of evil in every society flows through an institutional grid of religious, cultural and social values," and "The Ouzo Prophecy," "The evil that lurks in the minds of men is manifested in the collective evil of the beast. Understand the man and you cannot be deceived by his institutions."

Yes, Bob. How are you going to establish the Energy Party while at the same time avoiding it becoming an institution?

bobevenson wrote:You are obviously not receptive to the words of a prophet.

I'm glad for those who are sure of their wisdom, i truly am. I on the other hand, despite wanting to believe in free will, which i do because i can and knowing it will not change the way it either way is, do believe few other things with the certainty i recognize in your words, but like i said, i cannot change your faith, nor do i want to.

[edit; quote bobevenson]

Ginkgo wrote:

bobevenson wrote: I base my statement on the Church of Ouzo website (http://church-of-ouzo.com) "The pathway of evil in every society flows through an institutional grid of religious, cultural and social values," and "The Ouzo Prophecy," "The evil that lurks in the minds of men is manifested in the collective evil of the beast. Understand the man and you cannot be deceived by his institutions."

Yes, Bob. How are you going to establish the Energy Party while at the same time avoiding it becoming an institution?

People can't avoid institutional values, but they can understand them, just as they can make a wise bid playing the game of Ouzo.

It's hard not to subscribe to the idea that our thoughts are generated by a physical body ruled by the deterministic laws of science (nevermind the randoness of quantum mechanics), in such a manner that in the very end there's no absolutely free will.

But, as someone else already put in this topic, even so our thought process look an awful lot like free.

bobevenson wrote:

Ginkgo wrote:

bobevenson wrote: I base my statement on the Church of Ouzo website (http://church-of-ouzo.com) "The pathway of evil in every society flows through an institutional grid of religious, cultural and social values," and "The Ouzo Prophecy," "The evil that lurks in the minds of men is manifested in the collective evil of the beast. Understand the man and you cannot be deceived by his institutions."

Yes, Bob. How are you going to establish the Energy Party while at the same time avoiding it becoming an institution?

People can't avoid institutional values, but they can understand them, just as they can make a wise bid playing the game of Ouzo.

By logical implication then, the Energy Party would not be able to avoid creating institutional values. All it can do is understand them.

On this basis then the Energy Party by definition must be part of this institutional axis of evil. Understanding this or making wise choices doesn't change anything by way of definition of an institution.

Chomps wrote:It's hard not to subscribe to the idea that our thoughts are generated by a physical body ruled by the deterministic laws of science (nevermind the [randomness] of quantum mechanics), in such a manner that in the very end there's no absolutely free will.

But, as someone else already put in this topic, even so our thought process look an awful lot like free.

I think, and i might be wrong, you are referring to me where you say 'as someone else already put'. Like i said before, what we believe doesn't change the truth.

R2D2 wrote:He was a revolutionary.....It was said that the day they appeared on Ed Sullivan... for the hour of the show no crime occurred

Lovely thoughts ! from all my heart.
[09-Feb.. 50 years later, still not forgotten.]

R2D2 wrote:@ perceiving exists....I agree with you....and I think it's a combination of nature/nurture, laws and institution, quantum physics and consciousness being the major player.

Every 'atom' (the actual indivisible) of the blowing wind, causing the rising of the leafs and every dust particle, already happened at the first 'known' moment or before?
Same goes for every result in every sport, from racing to poker, from snooker to chess, accompanied by every reaction of every fan and the like?

Those 'obsessed' with free will or not are, in my opinion, fascinated by the irreversible nature of time we seem to go trough. 'After all has been', every drop fell in one place at one time only, until it dried up and fell somewhere else again. That is of course unless you walked there, and why did you catch that drop making it go another way? Never the less no other possibility happened besides the actual occurrence, making it look like it only could go that way, well, because it did so. This is, again to me, nor proof nor the verse of free will. (kinda like the moot of an 'universe' in a never ending possible multi-verse, being moot of that universe again and being part of another possible multi-verse and so on, and so on, i think you know the drill)

Talking about great names like Lennon and Morrison, i'd like to mention they are way better than me at putting feelings and thoughts into words, and therefore i'd like to quote yet again someone else;


..And we’re waiting for something to say, instead of listening..

Took a hit, a good hit
Like a car into the wall
What a hit, a real hit
When I thought I'd seen it all
Took a hit, a good hit
Let the dealer make the call
Oh man, I thought I'd seen it all

You throw out the recipe
Forget about you and me
You throw out the recipe
It's not about you or me
You throw out the recipe
Forget about you and me
You throw out the recipe
Because the good life, the good love
The good bits are for free

Oh, that's what all the love should be

Because the good love, the good life
The good bits are the recipe

- Racoon - Took a hit


Do you think life was created, or was it coincidence?
If it was created, would there be free will or not?
If it was coincidence, would there be free will or not?

Share your opinions with me if you like
(or because you must do?)

Ginkgo wrote:

bobevenson wrote:I base my statement on the Church of Ouzo website (http://church-of-ouzo.com) "The pathway of evil in every society flows through an institutional grid of religious, cultural and social values," and "The Ouzo Prophecy," "The evil that lurks in the minds of men is manifested in the collective evil of the beast. Understand the man and you cannot be deceived by his institutions."

Yes, Bob. How are you going to establish the American Energy Party while at the same time avoiding it becoming an institution? By logical implication then, the Energy Party would not be able to avoid creating institutional values. All it can do is understand them. On this basis then the Energy Party by definition must be part of this institutional axis of evil. Understanding this or making wise choices doesn't change anything by way of definition of an institution.

The pathway of evil flows through an institutional grid of religious, cultural and social values. I'm not talking about physical institutions like art museums, universities, or the American Energy Party (AEP).

bobevenson wrote:

Ginkgo wrote:

bobevenson wrote:I base my statement on the Church of Ouzo website (http://church-of-ouzo.com) "The pathway of evil in every society flows through an institutional grid of religious, cultural and social values," and "The Ouzo Prophecy," "The evil that lurks in the minds of men is manifested in the collective evil of the beast. Understand the man and you cannot be deceived by his institutions."

Yes, Bob. How are you going to establish the American Energy Party while at the same time avoiding it becoming an institution? By logical implication then, the Energy Party would not be able to avoid creating institutional values. All it can do is understand them. On this basis then the Energy Party by definition must be part of this institutional axis of evil. Understanding this or making wise choices doesn't change anything by way of definition of an institution.

The pathway of evil flows through an institutional grid of religious, cultural and social values. I'm not talking about physical institutions like art museums, universities, or the American Energy Party (AEP).

As you said previously, one cannot avoid institutional values. Museums, universities and the American Energy Party are, as you say, physical institutions. As physical institutions they still promote certain values. It would be absurd to argue that they don't.

The problem is that you have a contradiction on your hands. You want to proclaim the evil of institutional values while at the same time wanting to set up a physical institution devoid of any attitudes, beliefs, or procedural conduct. In short, devoid of values.

It is impossible.

bobevenson wrote: The pathway of evil flows through an institutional grid of religious, cultural and social values.

Is every value of every society, religion, and culture pure evil? are there NO good things you can think of, even if you tried? I sense a touch of pessimism in your words, and again, i might be wrong. The world is bigger than the USA..? Besides that, i think the Indians did a lot better..
Didn't you say there is no free will? So there isn't a point in trying to change anything, because it will happen either way or not beyond our own capabilities? Perhaps you understand why disagreeing on that can make a difference?

Ginkgo @ bobevenson wrote: [you have a contradiction on your hands, proclaim values devoid of any attitudes, beliefs, or procedural conduct. In short, devoid of values.]

No quality, good bad or in between cant ever exist, with out being at least the quantity of itself; 1.
Every quantity, itself being never less than 1, has some individual quality before having any or some meaning.

Perceiving exists. wrote:

bobevenson wrote: The pathway of evil flows through an institutional grid of religious, cultural and social values.

Is every value of every society, religion, and culture pure evil? are there NO good things you can think of, even if you tried? I sense a touch of pessimism in your words, and again, i might be wrong. The world is bigger than the USA..? Besides that, i think the Indians did a lot better..
Didn't you say there is no free will? So there isn't a point in trying to change anything, because it will happen either way or not beyond our own capabilities? Perhaps you understand why disagreeing on that can make a difference?

Ginkgo @ bobevenson wrote: [you have a contradiction on your hands, proclaim values devoid of any attitudes, beliefs, or procedural conduct. In short, devoid of values.]

No quality, good bad or in between cant ever exist, with out being at least the quantity of itself; 1.
Every quantity, itself being never less than 1, has some individual quality before having any or some meaning.

Hi Perceiving,


If you take a quote and to meld together with another person's ideas or your own then this is called, quote mining.

I didn't actually say " You have a contradiction on your hands, proclaim values devoid of attitudes, beliefs or procedural conduct".

Please in future quote me in full.

Many thanks
Ginkgo

Gingko, i will do so.

Gingko wrote: "The problem is that you have a contradiction on your hands. You want to proclaim the evil of institutional values while at the same time wanting to set up a physical institution devoid of any attitudes, beliefs, or procedural conduct. In short, devoid of values."

tell me where i am wrong?

No quality, good bad or in between cant ever exist, with out being at least the quantity of itself; 1.
Every quantity, itself being never less than 1, has some individual quality before having any or some meaning.

Perceiving exists. wrote:Gingko, i will do so.

Gingko wrote: "The problem is that you have a contradiction on your hands. You want to proclaim the evil of institutional values while at the same time wanting to set up a physical institution devoid of any attitudes, beliefs, or procedural conduct. In short, devoid of values."

tell me where i am wrong?

No quality, good bad or in between cant ever exist, with out being at least the quantity of itself; 1.
Every quantity, itself being never less than 1, has some individual quality before having any or some meaning.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean can you give me an example?

Ginkgo wrote:I'm not exactly sure what you mean can you give me an example?

I will try;

If some thing, either a concept or object, exists and is perceived, either subjective or objective, it must have some quantity. (with itself being at least 1)
You can't hold an opinion about a concept that is not existing, but if you hold a opinion about a concept, let it be an unimaginable one, you still give it some value.
Everything that is recognized will have some value, even 'not of any importance', is a value.

You can't see a tree, and not notice it.
(you might not be aware of it, but none the less,)
If you see a tree, you give it a value.
If you give something a value, it is perceived.
If it is perceived, it has value.