Time

[Hjarloprillar]

am i stupid? where is delete post button?

i look at edit post and quote.. no delete post button.

It should stand out as primary option.

am i blind?

[tillingborn]

What is possiible is that you dilate. and 100 orbits happen to those on earth in period it takes 10 orbits to happen in your REALITY.

When the clocks were brought together and compared in the Hafele-Keating experiment, they didn't show the same time, had the Earth gone a bit further round the sun in the REALITY of one clock?

[Hjarloprillar]

What is possiible is that you dilate. and 100 orbits happen to those on earth in period it takes 10 orbits to happen in your REALITY.

When the clocks were brought together and compared in the Hafele-Keating experiment, they didn't show the same time, had the Earth gone a bit further round the sun in the REALITY of one clock?

No the Earth is not the variable.. it rolls on.. the variable is kuznetzov . IT is at near lightspeed. You know this and attempt to deflect it.
The reality of one clock m earths had everything as normal.. the reality of kuznetzov clock had everything as normal.
What is the variable is that normal.
the two clocks tick along as you would expect and we have sleep and breakfast and do stuff.
but clock A earth ticks at one rate
and clock B kuznetsov.icks at another.
Bring them together at any point or deltaV and the two clocks and the enviroment that they existed in is revealealed as independent of eachother.
A
"very slow time machine."

Prill

[SpheresOfBalance]

Inconclusive!

What was inconclusive? They got the clocks back and they told different times consistent with the predictions and calculations of Relativity Theory? Its proved everyday with GPS systems.

As to what the cause was, of course!

[SpheresOfBalance]

a view from another forum

"Time in it's most accurate form , as I understand it, is a measure of the radiation cycles of the Cesium atom as in atomic clocks. This is indicative as a measurement of motion of the electrons involved. As for time being relative, the answer would be certainly, "yes". As matter travels through space, say a cesium atom, the observed radiation cycles decrease in frequency thus time slows for the atom. As the velocity increases there is more time dilation and also a physical flattening of the atom toward the direction of travel relative to the ambient radiation in space."
Did the aircraft travel east or west, or both? Maybe north or south, or both? Do you know? Did you know that the difference was nanoseconds, yes that's 10−9 (one billionth). Do you know of inductance, the gizmo you are using right now uses such natural force in it's circuits. The earth has a magnetosphere, Do you know the orientation of it's lines of flux? Are you starting to understand? Aircraft moving through air generate nodes of eddy currents, static wicks are used to bleed these to varying degrees, is it starting to come into focus? Do you understand what happens when magnetic lines of flux are broken? Hint, the USN uses such technology to find metal submarines underwater using helium atoms. Again, I say, Inconclusive!!!!!!!!! As to causal, as seen by results, as to no control utilized of significant value. I mean how could a puny human remove all possible causal's when he's trapped on one singular planet, as true control or the experiment would require it being duplicated on other planets without magnetosphere's, and varying gravitational pulls for the findings to be even close to conclusive.


UK's last comment about gps is correct. clocks we send out invariably differ to local time on return.
Aren't those sats geosync? thus relatively traveling faster due to greater radius? How about the distance from the earths gravitational pull? Does force of gravity's pull, influence, deviate at differing radius's? Again remember nanoseconds, yes that's 10−9 (one billionth).

Was time dilated with gravity/electromotive force, or was it simply that particular cesium atom's movement, due to these forces, independent of time? If I apply mechanical or electrical resistance to a pendulum of a clock, thus slowing it down, have I slowed down time, or merely the clock?


Spheres suffers from affliction that is very common and in some ways understandable.
I think you suffer from not understanding the subject matter, clearly!

If time is a variable the world is so much stranger it crosses the line into something spheres imagination cannot hold on to. let alone logic.
This is not because it is incorrect. It is because imagination cannot encompass it.
I think I just blew your imagination out of the water, showing your ignorance for what it is.


Over 100 years have passed since relativity was put forward. 98% of humanity still has no idea of what it means. 1 in 10,000 Can describe time dilation in plain language.
Many people reading this on this forum now, do not believe a ship that flew out and returned experienced LESS time than we on earth. [the Kuznetzov]
It simply does not fit in their world view so ergo.. it is false.

For to to do so. the kuznetsov became a very slow time machine.
the math works.. with enough deltaV it is possible to travel 1000 years into future in 10 years.
this is as demonstrable as our laws of gravity.

To quote
the genius who lived with us.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence and fulfills the duty to express the results of his thoughts in clear form."
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.'"
-------------------
what , did Hitler do about this german jew?
"Einstein's house was attacked by the SA [sturm abteilung] soon after Hitler came to power. Luckily Einstein was visiting California at the time."
LOL

Prill

[SpheresOfBalance]

And the view from this forum:

This is the direct link if you want a better look.

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u60 ... 73b9aa.jpg

The point is that every interaction takes longer the faster you are going, because the particles involved have to go further. In any inertial frame it is impossible to tell how fast you are going, because every atom in that frame is subject to the same dilation as you are; that is why time is relative. As Hafele-Keating showed, you can use relativity to work out how much faster or slower something is going than you are, but the idea of absolute rest is as good as useless, because you would have to compare your inertial frame with every other one in the universe and even then, all you would know is which one is the slowest. It's really not worth the effort.

.. with enough deltaV it is possible to travel 1000 years into future in 10 years.
this is as demonstrable as our laws of gravity.

What it is theoretically possible to do, is to spend as long in a spaceship as it takes for our planet to orbit our sun 1000 times and to be travelling at such a speed that the interactions on the ship and your body are slowed down, for the reason above, to such an extent that as many interactions will have happened as would have, had you been on the planet during 10 of those orbits.

Are we slowing time then? Sure positions are relative, and that is all. Within that frame all are moving at the same speed, which is only relative to any other frame, so there is no dilation within any given frame, you only believe time is dilated, when you compare two differing frames. All things (frames) are moving relative to one another, without things (frames) movement cannot be ascertained. If there was only one thing (frame) in the entire universe, is it moving? In what direction? How fast? If you sat there measuring that cesium atom, and I being a god that could move your frame around the universe at varying speeds and directions, instantly, invisibly (without any affect on your frame) would you see a difference? NO! nothing would change, as the universe (space)is a vacuum there are no gravitational forces if all other frames are removed. Within the earths gravitational pull aircraft pilots experience blackouts and redouts, as can astronauts, but out in space, with no gravitational pull they do not exist, baring that of another celestial body, but if all are removed and your frame is the only one, there would be no outside forces. Has humanity accounted for all outside forces? We currently posit dark energy, Again I ask, has humanity accounted for all outside forces?

The experiment was inconclusive, due to a lack of true control.

[SpheresOfBalance]

What is possiible is that you dilate. and 100 orbits happen to those on earth in period it takes 10 orbits to happen in your REALITY.
You obfuscate and still do not admit.. time Runs at a different rate.TIME on a ship at near light is not operating on same dynamic as time on earth.
Velocity and the tau factor.
Time RUNS At different rates. atoms move slower. The local environment of say the kuznesov is not linked in any way timewise to earth.
In the time it takes Joe to open fridge on earth and remove a nice burrito. Joe on kujznetsov is only just reaching out to grab the handle.
Dilation IS A REAL PHYSICAL ACTUALLITY. Not a product of observer/ subject. [though that would be if one could do so.]
WHEN JOE RETURNS TO EARTH.
He is say 5 or ten years older than when he left earth in 2018. On earth it is now 2679 ad.

this.. is a FACT
Not a theoretic possibility.
Like gravity. Time has its inverse square.
All i'm saying is dilation is just that.

You talking to tillingborn, forget it, he's got you whipped bud!

[SpheresOfBalance]

am i stupid? where is delete post button?

i look at edit post and quote.. no delete post button.

It should stand out as primary option.

am i blind?

You can only delete post before someone posts after you. It's in the upper left hand corner of the composition window.

[tillingborn]

The reality of one clock m earths had everything as normal.. the reality of kuznetzov clock had everything as normal.
What is the variable is that normal.

Are we slowing time then? Sure positions are relative, and that is all. Within that frame all are moving at the same speed, which is only relative to any other frame, so there is no dilation within any given frame, you only believe time is dilated, when you compare two differing frames. All things (frames) are moving relative to one another, without things (frames) movement cannot be ascertained.

The point is that every interaction takes longer the faster you are going, because the particles involved have to go further. In any inertial frame it is impossible to tell how fast you are going, because every atom in that frame is subject to the same dilation as you are; that is why time is relative.

I think we are all saying pretty much the same thing: that events occur at different rates according to the situation. My point is about Special Relativity: the faster an inertial frame is moving, the further particles have to go to interact. SpheresOfBalance is making the more sophisticated point that there is a lot more involved with how particles interact than just the distance they have to travel.
If you believe there is such a thing as absolute time, you can believe that events take more of this time. That raises the issue of how matter and time interact; which is the problem of dualism again. If on the other hand you accept the premise of SR, that 'time' is, well, relative, you are only committed to the empirically verified data that the same type of event will happen more or less frequently in inertial frames that are moving relative to each other and are subject to different strength fields, not least gravity. In other words, the phenomena described as time dilation are real. Whether matter is acting on a substance called time to slow it down is a metaphysical question, until time can be shown to exist in the absence of anything happening.

[Arising_uk]

...
The experiment was inconclusive, due to a lack of true control.

And yet all the later experiments confirm the original results with even more accuracy?

[Arising_uk]

You can only delete post before someone posts after you. It's in the upper left hand corner of the composition window.

Also in the bottom right of the actual post you want to delete.

[SpheresOfBalance]

...
The experiment was inconclusive, due to a lack of true control.

And yet all the later experiments confirm the original results with even more accuracy?

You need to reread and UNDERSTAND my points above before you and I can continue on this subject.

[SpheresOfBalance]

The reality of one clock m earths had everything as normal.. the reality of kuznetzov clock had everything as normal.
What is the variable is that normal.

Are we slowing time then? Sure positions are relative, and that is all. Within that frame all are moving at the same speed, which is only relative to any other frame, so there is no dilation within any given frame, you only believe time is dilated, when you compare two differing frames. All things (frames) are moving relative to one another, without things (frames) movement cannot be ascertained.

The point is that every interaction takes longer the faster you are going, because the particles involved have to go further. In any inertial frame it is impossible to tell how fast you are going, because every atom in that frame is subject to the same dilation as you are; that is why time is relative.

I think we are all saying pretty much the same thing: that events occur at different rates according to the situation. My point is about Special Relativity: the faster an inertial frame is moving, the further particles have to go to interact.
Any particle in a given frame, is like that of the train, they are all going the speed of the train at rest, thus when you throw them, they are moving relative to the train only. The particles of the atoms do not have farther to go, relative to all other parts of the atom, as all parts of the atom in that frame are going the exact same speed. Relative distance, in that frame, of relative constituents, are exactly the same as in any other frame. thus speed matters not, relative to what? The center of the ultimate frame of reference? (the universe; something larger {see below})

How can one know what speed the earth is going, and relative to what? The earth spins on it's axis, it revolves around the sun, our solar system revolves around a super massive black hole at the center of the milky way. And then I ask, how does the milky way move, and relative to what? The origin of a BB, or such other origin of singular/multiple supernova or other unknown forces? For all we know the universe is moving relative to something, etc, etc, etc, such that after we examine all these various relative movements back possibly googolplex's of levels, as they add or subtract, to a possible googolplex of varying degrees, depending upon various trajectories of movement, and other forces, we may be either static relative to the largest frame of reference, or traveling a googolplex, or be varying from static to a googolplex, depending on how complex the relative movements of all frames of references combined actually are. One cannot currently, necessarily, account for all the various frames of reference that may be present, and why try? As they have nothing to do with ours. They only seem to matter, as you try and compare them.

A cesium atom in a frame traveling zero relative to the ultimate frame of reference, versus one that is traveling a googolplex relative to the ultimate frame of reference, shall be measured exactly the same within their given frame, as all the atoms constituents are all traveling the same speed relative to one another. There is no dilation within that frame, it's an illusion, only as you compare frames.

Every celestial body is moving, relative to every other celestial body, their is no one true frame, with which all others must be compared that is human-centric. (sounds like Pre-Copernican religious dogma to me.)
Maybe man forgets to apply the lessons learned with such understandings of the past, as they pertain to new understandings of the now, because it's too much to fit in such a primitive brain.

SpheresOfBalance is making the more sophisticated point that there is a lot more involved with how particles interact than just the distance they have to travel.
If you believe there is such a thing as absolute time, you can believe that events take more of this time. That raises the issue of how matter and time interact; which is the problem of dualism again. If on the other hand you accept the premise of SR, that 'time' is, well, relative, you are only committed to the empirically verified data that the same type of event will happen more or less frequently in inertial frames that are moving relative to each other and are subject to different strength fields, not least gravity. In other words, the phenomena described as time dilation are real. Whether matter is acting on a substance called time to slow it down is a metaphysical question, until time can be shown to exist in the absence of anything happening.

Edit: Red

[SpheresOfBalance]

You can only delete post before someone posts after you. It's in the upper left hand corner of the composition window.

Also in the bottom right of the actual post you want to delete.

Are you correcting me, or helping Prill? Do you even know your reasoning, or those things in your psyche that initiated such methodology? Is it an Arising UK, over a Yank, that has you running?

[Arising_uk]

Are you correcting me, or helping Prill? Do you even know your reasoning, or those things in your psyche that initiated such methodology? Is it an Arising UK, over a Yank, that has you running?

What are you babbling about now? Surely its obvious that I'm adding to your advice.