Hi Soren,
I appreciate having had the opportunity to discuss this topic with you in a public forum. It's time for me to perhaps move to another topic on this site or somewhere else. The reason I have recently started to engage in it is because I find it more interesting then watching Netflix all the time or playing video games and I hope to learn something and share some of my insights. Also, of course, the topic of faith and its mechanism and rationale and its benefits is so vital in today's deteriorating environment that it should be used to make a positive impact.
So, here are a couple of final comments, and personal observations.
You are correct, I read the same, about the tradition "prayer for the dead" being the early impetus for the Catholic church to develop the tradition of purgatory. The rationale is that only souls not in heaven or hell can benefit from prayer by the living (since it is not needed or has any effect if in heaven or hell). Hence, there has to be a state of not being in heaven or hell for prayer for the dead to make sense.
Be it as it may, in the overall scheme of things it does not make much difference so that there has recently been a rapprochement between the Catholic and Eastern churches where they cordially agreed that they should work together and shelf this issue under politely agreeing to disagree.
Personally, I agree with you that the relevant fact is not to reject and loose the friendship of God, which would make it impossible for you to cohabit with God in the same place. (I wouldn't share my living space with someone who really could care less about me and perhaps disliked or even hated me). As long as I can avoid that attitude I hope to be in his presence by whatever avenue is available.
With regard to Medjugorje, you are correct that no one can say what is really going on and for 30 years the Catholic church has been very careful not to arrive at precipitous conclusions. I also read, however, that the church thinks that the biblical insight applies that you can recognize the tree by its fruit. And, so far, if the dark side is involved, it has been on its best behavior. So, only time will tell. According to a message to the seers, the apparitions are about to end. At that time the Blessed Mother will leave a final sign at the place of the first apparition (on a mountain) that will be recognized by the world as being supernatural in nature, will be indestructible, permanent, and immovable. This could happen during my lifetime so I am very curious about that of course.
Finally, in my opinion, it is our being endowed with free will and having to choose God under our own volition that makes for the seemingly frustrating absence of the verifiable supernatural. At the same time, I am happy that it is so. It would be extremely upsetting to me if I were surrounded by noticeable occurrences of the supernatural like having to constantly content with poltergeists while I am sitting in front of my TV eating my popcorn. I definitely think the two should not mix and that the arrangement currently in place is acceptable.
Western Christianity Is Wrong About Hell
Re: Western Christianity Is Wrong About Hell
Qman:
A fair and an honest reply. I wish you well, and will say only a couple of things in conclusion to our conversation.
As for Purgatory, I understand the rationalizations that have led to the existence of the concept as a fixture in Catholic theology. If acceptance before God is premised on the good or evil things we do, then it might make some sense to look for a way that a) unpunished sins committed in life could be dealt with, so as to satisfy the requirements of justice (Hitler needs a great deal worse than he got in life, one might observe), and b) those punished in that way could escape after they'd "paid the price" for what they did.
However, I submit to you that this is founded on a colossal mistake *if* turns out to be the case that relationship to God is not premised on the good or evil things we do, but rather on something else -- such as repentance and forgiveness, followed by a progressive transformation of character produced by the Supreme Being Himself. In that case, the agony and fear that Catholics feel over the question of where their relatives are, and where they themselves expect to be following death, would be a tragedy for them.
I submit further to you, that if the Author of the Bible had in mind something like Purgatory, that being the almost inevitable destiny (at least temporarily) for all but the highest "saints," it would certainly be a huge oversight if He failed to make reference to it explicitly and often, so that we might be well advised as to our future and take appropriate steps to improve our situation. That He did not is something we ought to consider.
A fair and an honest reply. I wish you well, and will say only a couple of things in conclusion to our conversation.
As for Purgatory, I understand the rationalizations that have led to the existence of the concept as a fixture in Catholic theology. If acceptance before God is premised on the good or evil things we do, then it might make some sense to look for a way that a) unpunished sins committed in life could be dealt with, so as to satisfy the requirements of justice (Hitler needs a great deal worse than he got in life, one might observe), and b) those punished in that way could escape after they'd "paid the price" for what they did.
However, I submit to you that this is founded on a colossal mistake *if* turns out to be the case that relationship to God is not premised on the good or evil things we do, but rather on something else -- such as repentance and forgiveness, followed by a progressive transformation of character produced by the Supreme Being Himself. In that case, the agony and fear that Catholics feel over the question of where their relatives are, and where they themselves expect to be following death, would be a tragedy for them.
I submit further to you, that if the Author of the Bible had in mind something like Purgatory, that being the almost inevitable destiny (at least temporarily) for all but the highest "saints," it would certainly be a huge oversight if He failed to make reference to it explicitly and often, so that we might be well advised as to our future and take appropriate steps to improve our situation. That He did not is something we ought to consider.