Philosophy Now Forum

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:38 amSure, but do you believe in God? Will you expose that much of yourself?

I am 1) not an atheist and 2) I have a spiritual life.

Is that enough of an answer?

I have commitments that I understand to be intimately associated with my intellectual life (and thus what I talk about here). I do not separate what I do (and think) from my sense of my spiritual life.

Can I go now?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:44 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:38 amSure, but do you believe in God? Will you expose that much of yourself?

I am 1) not an atheist and 2) I have a spiritual life.

Is that enough of an answer?

Not quite. Do you feel that whatever spiritual entity may be at play in our universe had any 'hand' in the words contained in the bible.

This is important to consider within a thread that is revolving around this book.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:44 am I have commitments that I understand to be intimately associated with my intellectual life (and thus what I talk about here). I do not separate what I do (and think) from my sense of my spiritual life.

Can I go now?

Maybe.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:50 am Not quite. Do you feel that whatever spiritual entity may be at play in our universe had any 'hand' in the words contained in the bible.

If there is a spirit and a hand — how could it be otherwise?

But when you say “the Bible” you mean to say Buy-Bull. That is where you stand. That’s your trip, your subjective assessment.

The Bible deals in profound meaning and also value. It overflows with those concerns, that impetus.

And what men (and women of course) have done in their relationship to meaning & value, is essentially what concerns me.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:56 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:50 am Not quite. Do you feel that whatever spiritual entity may be at play in our universe had any 'hand' in the words contained in the bible.

If there is a spirit and a hand — how could it be otherwise?

But when you say “the Bible” you mean to say Buy-Bull. That is where you stand. That’s your trip, your subjective assessment.

I don't consider the entire Bible as bullshit if that's what you are suggesting.

Do you believe your spiritual being spoke the world into existence as per Genesis?

I believe that to be bullshit (but it has it's reason). No doubt you would have some other take on it?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:56 amThe Bible deals in profound meaning and also value. It overflows with those concerns, that impetus.[]

I agree. The Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge, the Commandments at Mount Sinai, and the Gospels are my main areas of interest.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 4:05 amDo you believe your spiritual being spoke the world into existence as per Genesis?

If I understand “word” to be organizing power or something un-manifest becoming manifest and assuming form, sure, why not?

But the Christian idea of God-Logos has whole other sets of implication and meaning within Christian liturgical organization — yet all of this outside your (highly quirky and subjective) purview of course. It is unintelligible and irrelevant to your core concerns or focus.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 4:05 am
I don't consider the entire Bible as bullshit if that's what you are suggesting.

Pfffftttt!

It is not what I suggest it is what you continually say.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:20 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 4:05 am
I don't consider the entire Bible as bullshit if that's what you are suggesting.

Pfffftttt!

It is not what I suggest it is what you continually say.

This kind of misrepresentation annoys me. If I continually state that the entire Bible is bullshit, provide one example at least (and don't forget the entire context, if you bother).

As you know I am a Christian, I truly would be a turd to consider the entire scripture as bullshit. I stated above my main areas of interest within the Bible - as far fetched as some of those accounts in scripture may be, I don't consider them bullshit in any way.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:17 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 4:05 amDo you believe your spiritual being spoke the world into existence as per Genesis?

If I understand “word” to be organizing power or something un-manifest becoming manifest and assuming form, sure, why not?

It reduces God to something rather ridiculous, that it even had to speak ACTUAL words to create everything, that's Y not.

In Genesis God spoke words "Let there be this, let there be that..." this is not some other metaphorical comprehension of the term 'word'..

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:37 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 3:14 am Projections have consequences indispensable for continuation, delineating it through symbology which metaphysics is best able to employ, converting the secular into the sacred.

The added commas help I think.

Months back I gleaned what your position is. Here you merely repeat it. And you have soundly avoided my challenge (I predicted you would).

As always (and for everyone) have it your way.

So what is my position as you see it? I doubt you have any idea otherwise you wouldn't have come up with such puerile common challenges as what do I mean by this or that or demand some explicit statement. It seems that in spite of all your reading you remain as mentally paralytic as any steadfast bible worshipper.

But, as you say, have it your way.

I decline the request, Dubious. But nevertheless I hope feel free and inspired to develop your views and express them in comprehensible form.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:42 amIt reduces God to something rather ridiculous, that it even had to speak ACTUAL words to create everything

Many pictorial or symbolic representations have a ridiculous aspect when looked at in a certain way. Other symbols seem to hold their own and to convey meaning despite the paucity of the representation.

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 8:33 amIt seems that in spite of all your reading you remain as mentally paralytic as any steadfast bible worshipper.

You’ve said this and similar things at other times. I hope that you will develop the idea and present a fuller, convincing case. You imply that you’ve moved beyond ‘it’ (whatever it is) but you remain reticent and obscuring of what you really mean.

What interests me in what I sense of your “mood” is the degree that it shares an animus of contempt and hatred for something which is never that clearly defined. When I notice the mood of contempt and hatred, and when it looks to me to be psychological (projecting) I feel inclined to stop and examine the mood.

Show me (and other readers here) the way out of paralysis. Lead the way by showing the way.

Alexis Jacobi wrote:

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:42 am

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 5:17 am

If I understand “word” to be organizing power or something un-manifest becoming manifest and assuming form, sure, why not?

It reduces God to something rather ridiculous, that it even had to speak ACTUAL words to create everything, that's Y not.

In Genesis God spoke words "Let there be this, let there be that..." this is not some other metaphorical comprehension of the term 'word'..

Many pictorial or symbolic representations have a ridiculous aspect when looked at in a certain way. Other symbols seem to hold their own and to convey meaning despite the paucity of the representation.

See above Jacobi - I had to put things back within context - I get a little perturbed when people fail to quote the important bits that I state.

So you are suggesting these were not supposed to be accepted as actual words spoken by God - (or your spiritual being) - but you have some other deeper (non bullshit) way of explaining them - as if the 'words' are to be metaphorically interpreted in some way? -- 'as symbols' as you have countered?

3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

6 And God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”

These WORDS within the bible were not bullshit entered into the holy book - but something we should interpret YOUR way - please do explain..

The idea behind “word” is logos. In early Christianity there took place an infusion of Greek-Hermetic ideas. In fact the Gospel of John is thoroughly infused with Hermetic ideas. See for example The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel by CH Dodd.

As a nearly total subjectivist, as you seem to be, I imagine you will scoff at and dismiss such an intellectual or academic study. That’s your prerogative of course.

He breaks it down by referring to it as The Book of Signs.

New beginning
Life-giving Word
Bread of Life
Light & Life: manifestation and rejection
Judgment by the Light
Victory of life over death
Life through death. The meaning of the cross

To understand Christianity — this is my view — one must understand the context of the first century. The more one understands, the easier it is to grasp how meaning & value were conveyed and what moved people (and still moves them) when brought into the “circle” of signs.

If you desire to hold in contempt what you can’t or won’t understand that is your choice. If you wish to assert that your subjective, totally personal spiritual grasp is the sole one to have value — preach it, brother, preach it. Perhaps you will gain converts or in any case those who say “I understand what he’s on about”. Usually, we desire to be heard and understood, right?

The word λóyos has an extremely extensive range of meanings. Those which most concern us here are the two which the Stoics distinguished as λόγος ένδιάθετος and λόγος προφορικός-the λόγος in the mind and the uttered λóγos — i.e. 'thought' and 'word'. For us these concepts are distinct as they were not for Greek-speaking persons. Λóyos as 'word' is never the mere word as an assemblage of sounds (φωvń) but the word as determined by a meaning and conveying a meaning (φωvn nor the process of thinking as such, but an articulate unit of thought,
capable of intelligible utterance, whether as a single word (=þñuα), a phrase or sentence, or a prolonged discourse, or even a book. Whether or not it is actually uttered (or written) is a secondary matter, almost an accident; in any case it is λóyos. Behind it lies the idea of that which is rationally ordered, such as 'proportion' in mathematics or what we call 'law' in nature. These are examples of the same thing that we experience as articulate thought or meaningful speech.

Is there an on-going shortage of energy drinks in Australia again?