For the discussion of all things philosophical.
https://canzookia.com/
It just does, okay?Skepdick (the fake policeman) wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 2:49 pmHow exactly is that supposed to work?
I don't know who cares, but I'm not one of them, you foul mouthed twat.You got straingt to point? Congratulations. Who fucking cares?
And you are doing getting-on-my-nerves again.And you are doing metaphysics again.
Easy. God stated 'he' is a jealous God.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 1:26 pmTo have said that we seem to rely on Story as a means by which meaning and value are communicated, and to have said that in the Christian Gospels the primary meaning and value conveyed deal with metaphysical principle, is an attempt on my part to hold to what is of essential value while being willing to say 'story is just story' or stories vary. The Story then is not the principal thing. The principal thing is something beyond the story. I can go further as well and say that it is possible that to take this stance (or to use this intellectual tactic) would enable me to examine differing theological-narrative traditions (of India for example or Taoism) and to extract out of them 'metaphysical principles' that can be understood to be separate from the specific story-line and potentially unitive among them.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 6:42 pmYes, but there's more to it than that: in the case of Christianity, that which you've (we've) been referring to as the Story (with a capital S) is not mere story (in the sense of narrative) but is also and already comprised of metaphysical principles. An example is original sin. This is part of the Story but it is also very much a metaphysical principle: the principle that the consequences of the abrogation by the first created human beings of the divine commandments are inherited by their descendants.
It would veer away from my general assertion to discuss 'original sin' as a narrative element but it is definitely something that I have thought about. I can provide a way of thinking about the *meaning* referred to while abstracting that meaning from out of the specificity of the (Genesis) narrative. Original sin is said to have originated with the Fall. But what general principle could be gleaned from the general idea of a 'fall' that is not connected to the specificity of the Genesis story?
I just stated the reason above.Alexis Jacobi wrote:But why would one even attempt this? The answer is one that you and I and nearly all who write here understand: We cannot believe, try as we might, the Genesis story of a forbidden fruit, a woman tempted to eat it, and the resulting exile from a deathless locality into our world of tribulations and death. If once the Story was taken as *history* we can only now take it as allegory. And to do so we must get slippery indeed, and even a little deceitful, if we are to *hold to* the inherent value or relevance of the *meaning* contained in the story. So, what is the essence in the story? and what is conveyed?
Not necessarily, but certainly 'injected' a man into a womb to do its bidding.Alexis Jacobi wrote:The Christian story also expresses ideas, or principles, or potentials, that were not latent in Judaism. Obviously the entire idea, absolutely scandalous, that God became a man.
Why can't you believe that there is a God, an intelligence operating at the most finite sub-atomic scale of matter, a place that our perception of reality sits upon and is totally undetectable by its very nature?Alexis Jacobi wrote:But certainly that idea -- the idea of an avatara that chooses to descend into the World in order to reveal truth -- is quintessentially metaphysical. Connected with it is the notion of *revelation* which is central to Judaism but also to the religions of the East.
I agree with you that the Gospel narrative, and indeed the entire structure of Christian-Catholic religious understanding, is infused with metaphysical ideas. Propositions really, or interpretations about what the world is, what life is, what man is, and essentially how we got her and what we are to do here. And I still maintain my view that, given our incapacity to *believe* the stories, that our last refuge is intellectual metaphysics.
First, what I do and what I am doing is, as I have often said, a sort of manoeuvre. A slight-of-hand if you will. It is a tactic through which I can allow myself to see story as story and not feel bound to ridiculous, childish narrative that have become (literally) impossible to believe. We spent months talking about these impossibilities in this thread. We are moderns. We cannot believe what we cannot believe.
Then read some books on physics and get a grasp on how much we lack in our perception.Alexis Jacobi wrote:I would not say that the manoeuvre that I employ is ideal. And it may actually mean that, at some fundamental level I really & truly could never be a Christian believer
A.I. machine intelligence - kills most humans, has no empathy...gets to the point that it hasn't worked out what it actually is to be sentient, so it interfaces to biological life. Then it comes to real eyes that thing called love, and empathy. It works out what a disgusting entity it was to destroy so many families.Alexis Jacobi wrote:and that my attempt to hold to it is basically dishonest and remedial, but at the very least I am aware that I am employing tactics and tricks to hold something together: a larger metaphysical picture, a 'metaphysical dream' to use Weaver's term.
When I examine the alternative (collapse of metaphysical concepts, and thus the destruction of entire edifices of value & meaning that have been constructed, and indeed upon which our *self* depends, I describe my *desperation* (this is a term I use to refer to our human situation today) as making some sense. But I am not unconscious about what I am doing in facing an assault by destructive forces that are essentially mechanical (machine intelligence).
The point of the story; the moral of it; the message; the lesson; the wisdom (if there is any) that it imparts.
I don't think I've ever needed to use the term.When you use the term 'metaphysics' what exactly do you mean?
The branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, identity, time, and space.What is metaphysics?
I recognize that you made statements. I recognize that these function for you as genuine explanations. I grasp the logic or the narrative flow of your way of interpreting and seeing. And it is almost thoroughly outside of the cultural and spiritual-religious concerns that in my view exist in the Christian core.
I accept your statement of my idiosyncratic nature. Of course this is the case, I certainly have never heard of anyone else that has dealt with the very real wrath of this God entity on multiple occasions over a span of 26 years. (I have experienced the good side too - a taste of heavenAlexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 4:58 pmI recognize that you made statements. I recognize that these function for you as genuine explanations. I grasp the logic or the narrative flow of your way of interpreting and seeing. And it is almost thoroughly outside of the cultural and spiritual-religious concerns that in my view exist in the Christian core.
I therefore categorize you as an absolute idiosyncratic practitioner.
)No, this is not a mirror that only reflects back to myself. You need to understand that the view from my extensive experience of God, of what God is capable of gives me insight into the allegorical meanings within the bible. Heck, just the fact that I know the God of the bible exists should stand for something.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 4:58 pm..could also employ other terms like solipsistic or self-involved. Your lens is a ‘mirror’ that only reflects you back to yourself.
...everything which is not physics. But equally true, one does not live by physics alone. The problem currently, the old metaphysical hot rods are too slow on the the modern autobahn to be of much use.What is metaphysics?
Regarding 'story' as how we express ideas, all explanations are narratives in the sense that they connect ideas either causally or logically. "All narratives" includes mathematics (narrative with logical connections) and metaphysics (logical and causal connections) and science (causal connections).Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 1:26 pmTo have said that we seem to rely on Story as a means by which meaning and value are communicated, and to have said that in the Christian Gospels the primary meaning and value conveyed deal with metaphysical principle, is an attempt on my part to hold to what is of essential value while being willing to say 'story is just story' or stories vary. The Story then is not the principal thing. The principal thing is something beyond the story. I can go further as well and say that it is possible that to take this stance (or to use this intellectual tactic) would enable me to examine differing theological-narrative traditions (of India for example or Taoism) and to extract out of them 'metaphysical principles' that can be understood to be separate from the specific story-line and potentially unitive among them.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 6:42 pmYes, but there's more to it than that: in the case of Christianity, that which you've (we've) been referring to as the Story (with a capital S) is not mere story (in the sense of narrative) but is also and already comprised of metaphysical principles. An example is original sin. This is part of the Story but it is also very much a metaphysical principle: the principle that the consequences of the abrogation by the first created human beings of the divine commandments are inherited by their descendants.
It would veer away from my general assertion to discuss 'original sin' as a narrative element but it is definitely something that I have thought about. I can provide a way of thinking about the *meaning* referred to while abstracting that meaning from out of the specificity of the (Genesis) narrative. Original sin is said to have originated with the Fall. But what general principle could be gleaned from the general idea of a 'fall' that is not connected to the specificity of the Genesis story? But why would one even attempt this? The answer is one that you and I and nearly all who write here understand: We cannot believe, try as we might, the Genesis story of a forbidden fruit, a woman tempted to eat it, and the resulting exile from a deathless locality into our world of tribulations and death. If once the Story was taken as *history* we can only now take it as allegory. And to do so we must get slippery indeed, and even a little deceitful, if we are to *hold to* the inherent value or relevance of the *meaning* contained in the story. So, what is the essence in the story? and what is conveyed? On one level it seems to be a sort of *memory* that at one time we existed in another sort of realm -- deathless, protected, free of trouble -- but that by some choice we made we lost our protected status and *fell* down into the World that operates around us: a mutable, dangerous, ever-shifting world where flesh & blood creatures prey upon each other in a violent system from out of which there is no escape.
I tried to get Immanuel Can to engage with the idea removed from the specific context but he'd have none of it. Is the entire Universe, indeed the entire Kosmos and all living creatures in it (as indeed there must be other worlds with living, conscious beings, right?) under the same spell as those two people who messed up and fell into the world of mutability and becoming? And if you were to visit one of those worlds, let's say, and to bring a Message of salvation and liberation to those denizens, how would you reveal these Truths to them? Would you refer to the Earth-narrative and the Gospel story? Or would you speak in terms of abstract principles? And if in abstract (metaphysical) principles, what exactly would you say?
The Christian story also expresses ideas, or principles, or potentials, that were not latent in Judaism. Obviously the entire idea, absolutely scandalous, that God became a man. But certainly that idea -- the idea of an avatara that chooses to descend into the World in order to reveal truth -- is quintessentially metaphysical. Connected with it is the notion of *revelation* which is central to Judaism but also to the religions of the East.
I agree with you that the Gospel narrative, and indeed the entire structure of Christian-Catholic religious understanding, is infused with metaphysical ideas. Propositions really, or interpretations about what the world is, what life is, what man is, and essentially how we got her and what we are to do here. And I still maintain my view that, given our incapacity to *believe* the stories, that our last refuge is intellectual metaphysics.
First, what I do and what I am doing is, as I have often said, a sort of manoeuvre. A slight-of-hand if you will. It is a tactic through which I can allow myself to see story as story and not feel bound to ridiculous, childish narrative that have become (literally) impossible to believe. We spent months talking about these impossibilities in this thread. We are moderns. We cannot believe what we cannot believe....I don't think that this separation that you make holds very well in the context of Christianity's Story (with a capital S).
I would not say that the manoeuvre that I employ is ideal. And it may actually mean that, at some fundamental level I really & truly could never be a Christian believer, and that my attempt to hold to it is basically dishonest and remedial, but at the very least I am aware that I am employing tactics and tricks to hold something together: a larger metaphysical picture, a 'metaphysical dream' to use Weaver's term.
When I examine the alternative (collapse of metaphysical concepts, and thus the destruction of entire edifices of value & meaning that have been constructed, and indeed upon which our *self* depends, I describe my *desperation* (this is a term I use to refer to our human situation today) as making some sense. But I am not unconscious about what I am doing in facing an assault by destructive forces that are essentially mechanical (machine intelligence).
The only thing of interest I get from that story is the suggestion that our curiosity and desire for knowledge (eating the fruit of the tree) has separated us from the rest of nature (expelled us from the garden). I find some truth in that, but not truth that couldn't be conveyed in a much more straight forward way, and not truth that is of much use in informing me of a better way to live my life. I don't deny that ceding all moral judgement to God might make life simpler, and relieve one of the burden of having to agonise over such matters oneself, but if that is the message we take from the story, being unable to believe there is a God is a big stumbling block to finding it useful.Belinda wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 11:02 am The myth of The Expulsion From Eden explains original sin i.e. how mankind is morally autonomous and how men can avoid the pitfalls of moral autonomy by obeying the authority of God.This important story can be interpreted as taking place in a time sequence but that is to miss its point about man's permanent place in a world of change, time, and force. Some view Satan as a force for good as Satan kick= started man's cultural evolution.
Yes, a much more straightforward way would be better than an ancient and discredited story. However people do enjoy entertaining stories and few bother to read or listen to an explanation that they don't enjoy. I will try to find a short and entertaining modern alternative to the Genesis story.Harbal wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 11:48 amThe only thing of interest I get from that story is the suggestion that our curiosity and desire for knowledge (eating the fruit of the tree) has separated us from the rest of nature (expelled us from the garden). I find some truth in that, but not truth that couldn't be conveyed in a much more straight forward way, and not truth that is of much use in informing me of a better way to live my life. I don't deny that ceding all moral judgement to God might make life simpler, and relieve one of the burden of having to agonise over such matters oneself, but if that is the message we take from the story, being unable to believe there is a God is a big stumbling block to finding it useful.Belinda wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 11:02 am The myth of The Expulsion From Eden explains original sin i.e. how mankind is morally autonomous and how men can avoid the pitfalls of moral autonomy by obeying the authority of God.This important story can be interpreted as taking place in a time sequence but that is to miss its point about man's permanent place in a world of change, time, and force. Some view Satan as a force for good as Satan kick= started man's cultural evolution.
I find Aesop much more enjoyable than the Bible.Belinda wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 12:04 pm
Yes, a much more straightforward way would be better than an ancient and discredited story. However people do enjoy entertaining stories and few bother to read or listen to an explanation that they don't enjoy. I will try to find a short and entertaining modern alternative to the Genesis story.
So do I. I wonder if Aesop told a story about the human condition sans God. I was just looking up the story of Prometheus and Pandora which is basically about man going it alone without Authority---rejecting Authority.Harbal wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 12:10 pmI find Aesop much more enjoyable than the Bible.Belinda wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 12:04 pm
Yes, a much more straightforward way would be better than an ancient and discredited story. However people do enjoy entertaining stories and few bother to read or listen to an explanation that they don't enjoy. I will try to find a short and entertaining modern alternative to the Genesis story.
Belinda wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 12:49 pmSo do I. I wonder if Aesop told a story about the human condition sans God. I was just looking up the story of Prometheus and Pandora which is basically about man going it alone without Authority---rejecting moral Authority. Aesop's The Man, The Boy, and The Donkey is about trying to please everybody so that autonomy is trashed.Harbal wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 12:10 pmI find Aesop much more enjoyable than the Bible.Belinda wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 12:04 pm
Yes, a much more straightforward way would be better than an ancient and discredited story. However people do enjoy entertaining stories and few bother to read or listen to an explanation that they don't enjoy. I will try to find a short and entertaining modern alternative to the Genesis story.
I don't know the story, but I suppose I could have quickly googled it and then claimed I was already familiar with it, which would, I suspect, be the normal course of action for a good many members of this forum.
I seem to think Pandora has a similar role to Eve, but I don't know how I came to think that. Greek mythology seems much more colourful than the Bible, and hardly any less plausible.First, I think it fair for you to encapsulate for your readership what you believe the olden hot rod of Christianity (Catholicism really) to be composed of, say metaphysically. That is to ask What is its essence? And could that ‘essence’ be abstracted from the (historical) Story?