Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:50 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:21 pm
And that's fine. But if you're a Determinist, then you'll need a mechanism to explain what's going on. If it's not, like Mike, "physical forces," what is making things happen?

We don't need to believe in matter itself in order to subscribe to physical forces, nor believe in any Western duality. Physical stuff = phenomenal conscious stuff.

That's the problem. Physical stuff isn't conscious. So how does consciousness get started from it?

Physical stuff and mental stuff are two aspects of the same brainmind.Y ou should look up the several theories of being if you are at all willing to learn something new to you.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:31 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:50 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:27 pm
We don't need to believe in matter itself in order to subscribe to physical forces, nor believe in any Western duality. Physical stuff = phenomenal conscious stuff.

That's the problem. Physical stuff isn't conscious. So how does consciousness get started from it?

Physical stuff and mental stuff are two aspects of the same brainmind.

Ummm...no. Not unless you're a Pantheist. Which you can be, if you want, of course.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:31 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:50 pm
That's the problem. Physical stuff isn't conscious. So how does consciousness get started from it?

Physical stuff and mental stuff are two aspects of the same brainmind.

Ummm...no. Not unless you're a Pantheist. Which you can be, if you want, of course.

Panentheism too. Can a person be a Christian and a panentheist ? I wouldn't know. There are many paths to God.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:53 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:31 pm
Physical stuff and mental stuff are two aspects of the same brainmind.

Ummm...no. Not unless you're a Pantheist. Which you can be, if you want, of course.

Panentheism too. Can a person be a Christian and a panentheist ? I wouldn't know. There are many paths to God.

No. Those two contradict. One has to choose. That's life.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:57 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:53 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:41 pm
Ummm...no. Not unless you're a Pantheist. Which you can be, if you want, of course.

Panentheism too. Can a person be a Christian and a panentheist ? I wouldn't know. There are many paths to God.

No. Those two contradict. One has to choose. That's life.

I choose to be liberal and say there are many paths to God.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:31 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:50 pm
That's the problem. Physical stuff isn't conscious. So how does consciousness get started from it?

Physical stuff and mental stuff are two aspects of the same brainmind.

Ummm...no. Not unless you're a Pantheist. Which you can be, if you want, of course.

Immanuel, your physical body is conscious. If you’re claiming that consciousness must be separate from the physical, then you’ve got a problem explaining why anesthetics, which act on your physical brain, have such a profound effect on your consciousness. How does something purely physical like a drug knock out something supposedly non-physical like a separate mind or soul? Either consciousness arises from the physical brain, or you’re suggesting anesthetics have magical properties capable of reaching into a mystical plane. Which is it?

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:57 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:53 pm Panentheism too. Can a person be a Christian and a panentheist ? I wouldn't know. There are many paths to God.

No. Those two contradict. One has to choose. That's life.

I choose to be liberal and say there are many paths to God.

Let's see what God says about that.

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:31 pm
Physical stuff and mental stuff are two aspects of the same brainmind.

Ummm...no. Not unless you're a Pantheist. Which you can be, if you want, of course.

Immanuel, your physical body is conscious. If you’re claiming that consciousness must be separate from the physical...

I haven't. I've claimed they're coordinated, in some ways, and not in others, but not "separate."

You should actually read what I write, maybe.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:20 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:41 pm
Ummm...no. Not unless you're a Pantheist. Which you can be, if you want, of course.

Immanuel, your physical body is conscious. If you’re claiming that consciousness must be separate from the physical, then you’ve got a problem explaining why anesthetics, which act on your physical brain, have such a profound effect on your consciousness. How does something purely physical like a drug knock out something supposedly non-physical like a separate mind or soul? Either consciousness arises from the physical brain, or you’re suggesting anesthetics have magical properties capable of reaching into a mystical plane. Which is it?

I haven't. I've claimed they're coordinated, in some ways, and not in others, but not "separate."

You should actually read what I write, maybe.

Immanuel, if you’re claiming the physical and conscious are "coordinated" rather than separate, that’s progress—but it still leaves a fundamental question: what does the "coordination" rely on? If consciousness isn’t separate and arises in tandem with physical processes, as you seem to imply, then you're already acknowledging a dependency on the physical.

Anesthetics don’t merely "coordinate" with consciousness—they directly alter it by acting on the brain. If consciousness existed independently, there would be no reason a physical substance could so thoroughly disrupt it. Coordination isn’t enough to explain that kind of causative relationship. So again, how does a physical interaction explainably alter a supposedly non-physical phenomenon?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:17 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:57 pm
No. Those two contradict. One has to choose. That's life.

I choose to be liberal and say there are many paths to God.

Let's see what God says about that.

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Immanuel, I’m curious—who exactly did God say that to, and how? Did He transmit this via sound waves, vibrating eardrums in the physical world? Or was it through another medium that also conveniently interacts with the physical brain? If you claim God used sound or any other physical means, you're acknowledging the inextricable link between the physical and the conscious. So which is it?

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:31 pm
Physical stuff and mental stuff are two aspects of the same brainmind.

Ummm...no. Not unless you're a Pantheist. Which you can be, if you want, of course.

Immanuel, your physical body is conscious. If you’re claiming that consciousness must be separate from the physical, then you’ve got a problem explaining why anesthetics, which act on your physical brain, have such a profound effect on your consciousness. How does something purely physical like a drug knock out something supposedly non-physical like a separate mind or soul? Either consciousness arises from the physical brain, or you’re suggesting anesthetics have magical properties capable of reaching into a mystical plane. Which is it?

What's the difference between the unconsciousness we each constantly experience during dreamless sleep, and that of the unconsciousness one experiences under anesthesia?

The point is that there is already a natural mechanism built into the body/mind system that might possibly account for how and why anesthesia can cause one to momentary lose consciousness.
_______

I was a pantheist for a while then I learned how to cook in a wok...

-Imp

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 10:30 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:41 pm
Ummm...no. Not unless you're a Pantheist. Which you can be, if you want, of course.

Immanuel, your physical body is conscious. If you’re claiming that consciousness must be separate from the physical, then you’ve got a problem explaining why anesthetics, which act on your physical brain, have such a profound effect on your consciousness. How does something purely physical like a drug knock out something supposedly non-physical like a separate mind or soul? Either consciousness arises from the physical brain, or you’re suggesting anesthetics have magical properties capable of reaching into a mystical plane. Which is it?

What's the difference between the unconsciousness we each constantly experience during dreamless sleep, and that of the unconsciousness one experiences under anesthesia?

The point is that there is already a natural mechanism built into the body/mind system that might possibly account for how and why anesthesia can cause one to momentary lose consciousness.
_______

Seeds, the difference lies in how those states come about. Dreamless sleep is a natural cycle involving reduced neural activity but still includes periods of subconscious processing and occasional dreaming (REM cycles). Anesthesia, on the other hand, is an induced state that pharmacologically interrupts the brain's ability to process and integrate signals, effectively "shutting down" consciousness in a controlled and reversible way.

If consciousness were non-physical and separate from the brain, why would anesthetics—entirely physical substances—so reliably block its emergence? There’s no mystical “natural mechanism” needed beyond the observable effects of drugs on neural pathways. This consistency underscores the link between the physical brain and conscious experience, further challenging the idea of consciousness existing outside the material realm.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:41 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:31 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:50 pm
That's the problem. Physical stuff isn't conscious. So how does consciousness get started from it?

Physical stuff and mental stuff are two aspects of the same brainmind.

Ummm...no. Not unless you're a Pantheist. Which you can be, if you want, of course.

LOL AND you can BELIEVE that God is A 'male gendered Thing', which CREATED the WHOLE UNIVERSE, all by Its LONESOME, and ONCE UPON A TIME, if you want, of course.

But, OBVIOUSLY, one would have to be an ABSOLUTE FOOL and COMPLETE IDIOT TO BELIEVE that God, Itself, is 'male gendered', and/or has 'male' sex organs.

one would have to be ABSOLUTE FOOL and COMPLETE IDIOT, AS WELL. to BELIEVE that there IS or WAS some thing OUTSIDE OF the Universe, Itself, which CREATED the Universe FROM ... (who knows 'what'). But, if you are a 'believer' of 'this', then you can be, if you want to, of course.

However, do you NOT BE SURPRISED that others ARE LAUGHING AT you, and NOR WHY they are DOING THIS.

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:37 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:20 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:07 pm Immanuel, your physical body is conscious. If you’re claiming that consciousness must be separate from the physical, then you’ve got a problem explaining why anesthetics, which act on your physical brain, have such a profound effect on your consciousness. How does something purely physical like a drug knock out something supposedly non-physical like a separate mind or soul? Either consciousness arises from the physical brain, or you’re suggesting anesthetics have magical properties capable of reaching into a mystical plane. Which is it?

I haven't. I've claimed they're coordinated, in some ways, and not in others, but not "separate."

You should actually read what I write, maybe.

Immanuel, if you’re claiming the physical and conscious are "coordinated" rather than separate, that’s progress—but it still leaves a fundamental question: what does the "coordination" rely on?

"If you're claiming?" No, Sport...I'm only "claiming" exactly what I wrote. Nothing else.

...you're already acknowledging a dependency on the physical.

No, I am not. You're making a very basic fallacy again: it's called "correlation is not causation." You could just as easily conclude the opposite. Either way, you'd be guilty of a fallacy.

Coordination isn’t enough to explain that kind of causative relationship.

Right. So why did you make the same fallacy earlier?

So again, how does a physical interaction explainably alter a supposedly non-physical phenomenon?

We don't know. You don't know, and I don't know. No scientist in the world knows, either. But we do know that they aren't the same thing. And you're demonstrating it by your continued act of arguing. You, too, believe that cognition can cause physical reactions -- for it is your cognition that is inducing your fingers to type; you are formulating ideas, then transmitting them into the physical medium of your body.

If that's not what's happening, then even by your own standards, you'd have to say that you are typing without thought. Is that what you are doing?