Philosophy Now Forum

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:15 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:11 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:05 pm

The answer is known by at least hundreds of millions

It's actually not, of course. It's certainly not known by you, or you'd just have given it. It would be the easiest way to make your point.

But we can leave it at that. I'm not going to poke about in a mountain of rocks, trying to find a ruby (as Meatloaf so poignantly suggested)...or a consciousness in a pile of non-sentient "matter" or "physical forces."

True nondualism...

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:18 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:15 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:11 pm
It's actually not, of course. It's certainly not known by you, or you'd just have given it. It would be the easiest way to make your point.

But we can leave it at that. I'm not going to poke about in a mountain of rocks, trying to find a ruby (as Meatloaf so poignantly suggested)...or a consciousness in a pile of non-sentient "matter" or "physical forces."

True nondualism...

Ah. So you think consciousness is latent within "physical forces"? Pantheism.

Atla, the mystic sage, sat cross-legged on the worn wooden floor of his humble abode contemplating his bellybutton et cetera. His eyes, like two cosmic wormholes, gazed into the flickering flame of the candle before him. The soft, golden light flickered across his features, illuminating the gentle contours of his face.

As a mystic sage of Eastern monism, Atla had spent years studying the ancient texts, seeking the ultimate truth. His quest had led him to the threshold of a profound Revelation, one that threatened to upend the very foundations of our understanding.

Yet, despite the magnitude of his discovery, Atla remained hesitant to share it with the world. His shy and coy nature had always made him reticent, preferring the solitude of his own company to the scrutiny of others.

As he sat in contemplative silence, a gentle knock at the door broke the stillness. It was his devoted disciple, Alexis. Atla's eyes fluttered closed, and he took a deep breath, steeling himself for the encounter.

"Enter," he whispered, his voice barely audible.

Alexis slid open the door and bowed low, his eyes shining with reverence. "Master Atla, I sense that you are on the cusp of a great revelation. Will you not share it with me, that I might learn from your wisdom?"

Atla's gaze drifted upward, his eyes locking onto Alexis’. For an instant, the air was charged with an almost palpable tension. Then, in a movement so subtle it was almost imperceptible, Atla's lips curled into a faint, enigmatic smile.

"Perhaps," he whispered, his voice dripping with an air of mystery, "the time for revelation is near. But first, Alexis, you must prepare yourself to receive the truth. Are you prepared to have your understanding shattered, to have the very foundations of your reality upended?"

Alexis’ eyes widened, his face set in a determined expression. "I am ready, Master Atla. I am prepared to receive the truth, no matter how shattering it may be."

Atla's smile deepened, his eyes glinting with a knowing light. "Then, Alexis, let us begin. For the time of revelation is indeed at hand, and the truth that is about to be revealed will change everything forever."

Atla reached out and touched Alexis’ forehead to transfer the indescribable revelation. There was an electric snap and :::zazoom!::: Alexis was transformed into a squealing piglet and scurried away …

“Shit!”, exclaimed Atla, “I thought I had that one down! Oh well …”

Alexis, was last seen rooting through a neighborhood garbage pile, grunting in apparent joyfulness.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:50 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:21 pm
And that's fine. But if you're a Determinist, then you'll need a mechanism to explain what's going on. If it's not, like Mike, "physical forces," what is making things happen?

We don't need to believe in matter itself in order to subscribe to physical forces, nor believe in any Western duality. Physical stuff = phenomenal conscious stuff.

That's the problem. Physical stuff isn't conscious. So how does consciousness get started from it?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:20 pm

Atla, the mystic sage, sat cross-legged on the worn wooden floor of his humble abode contemplating his bellybutton et cetera. His eyes, like two cosmic wormholes, gazed into the flickering flame of the candle before him. The soft, golden light flickered across his features, illuminating the gentle contours of his face.

As a mystic sage of Eastern monism, Atla had spent years studying the ancient texts, seeking the ultimate truth. His quest had led him to the threshold of a profound Revelation, one that threatened to upend the very foundations of our understanding.

Yet, despite the magnitude of his discovery, Atla remained hesitant to share it with the world. His shy and coy nature had always made him reticent, preferring the solitude of his own company to the scrutiny of others.

As he sat in contemplative silence, a gentle knock at the door broke the stillness. It was his devoted disciple, Alexis. Atla's eyes fluttered closed, and he took a deep breath, steeling himself for the encounter.

"Enter," he whispered, his voice barely audible.

Alexis slid open the door and bowed low, his eyes shining with reverence. "Master Atla, I sense that you are on the cusp of a great revelation. Will you not share it with me, that I might learn from your wisdom?"

Atla's gaze drifted upward, his eyes locking onto Alexis’. For an instant, the air was charged with an almost palpable tension. Then, in a movement so subtle it was almost imperceptible, Atla's lips curled into a faint, enigmatic smile.

"Perhaps," he whispered, his voice dripping with an air of mystery, "the time for revelation is near. But first, Alexis, you must prepare yourself to receive the truth. Are you prepared to have your understanding shattered, to have the very foundations of your reality upended?"

Alexis’ eyes widened, his face set in a determined expression. "I am ready, Master Atla. I am prepared to receive the truth, no matter how shattering it may be."

Atla's smile deepened, his eyes glinting with a knowing light. "Then, Alexis, let us begin. For the time of revelation is indeed at hand, and the truth that is about to be revealed will change everything forever."

Atla reached out and touched Alexis’ forehead to transfer the indescribable revelation. There was an electric snap and :::zazoom!::: Alexis was transformed into a squealing piglet and scurried away …

“Shit!”, exclaimed Atla, “I thought I had that one down! Oh well …”

Alexis, was last seen rooting through a neighborhood garbage pile, grunting in apparent joyfulness.

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:50 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:27 pm
We don't need to believe in matter itself in order to subscribe to physical forces, nor believe in any Western duality. Physical stuff = phenomenal conscious stuff.

That's the problem. Physical stuff isn't conscious. So how does consciousness get started from it?

Immanuel, take a good look at yourself. There's your answer, right there.

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:18 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:15 pm
True nondualism...

Ah. So you think consciousness is latent within "physical forces"? Pantheism.

Nope

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:29 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:18 pm
Ah. So you think consciousness is latent within "physical forces"? Pantheism.

Nope

So there is no consciousness within physical forces. But now, we have consciousness. What is your explanation of that fact?

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:36 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:29 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:19 pm
Nope

So there is no consciousness within physical forces. But now, we have consciousness. What is your explanation of that fact?

Not even wrong

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 2:09 pmThe real topic here is BigMike as neurotic subject.

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 12:59 pmI feel liberated as an atheist. For me, stepping away from belief in God wasn’t a step into despair; it was a step into clarity.

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:25 pm Immanuel, take a good look at yourself. There's your answer, right there. Consciousness isn’t some magical exception to the physical world—it’s the product of it. Your neurons, firing away in intricate patterns, are physical processes at work, generating the experience you call consciousness. The same physical forces that govern everything else in the universe are responsible for your thoughts, your sense of self, and even your questions about consciousness. Look at how you think, feel, and process the world—that’s physics in action, not some ethereal, inexplicable phenomenon.

Immanuel, take a good look at yourself!

There's your answer, right there, no need to seek elsewhere.

Your mind, a maze of neurons, firing bright
A symphony of synapses, in the dark of night, consciousness a product of the physical realm. No magical exception, just the brain's intricate helm.

Immanuel, take a good look at yourself!

The patterns dance, a waltz of electrical delight generating the experience of consciousness and sight. No ghost in the machine, just the hum of the brain, a physical process, that can be explained.

Immanuel, take a good look at yourself!

Yet in this intricate web, a mystery remains: that sense of self, that transcends the physical domains, a spark of awareness, that flickers like a flame, a consciousness that knows, it's more than a mere name.

Immanuel, take a good look at yourself!

“The answer lies within, in the physical wealth of neurons firing, and synapses that entwine the product of the physical, and there and only there is the consciousness that shines.”

Immanuel, take a good look at yourself!

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:28 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 5:50 pm
That's the problem. Physical stuff isn't conscious. So how does consciousness get started from it?

Immanuel, take a good look at yourself. There's your answer, right there.

You've just restated the problem, not provided any answer.

I already pointed out that we have two things: one, a story of origins from non-sentient matter, and two, the undisputable fact of sentience. How can the second fact solve the contradiction between the two? It cannot.

So you have no answer either.

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 12:59 pm Daniel Dennett’s Caught in the Pulpit explores a tragic dimension of this transition—the turmoil of clergy who lose faith but feel trapped by their roles. Their stories highlight the existential struggle that arises when cherished beliefs fall away, leaving uncertainty in their wake. Yet, these stories also underline something crucial: many of those who left faith behind ultimately found liberation, authenticity, and a renewed sense of purpose. They discovered that meaning needn’t come from above—it can be built from the ground up.

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:10 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:28 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2025 7:25 pm

Immanuel, take a good look at yourself. There's your answer, right there.

You've just restated the problem, not provided any answer.

I already pointed out that we have two things: one, a story of origins from non-sentient matter, and two, the undisputable fact of sentience. How can the second fact solve the contradiction between the two? It cannot.

So you have no answer either.

Immanuel, are you seriously claiming you have no consciousness?