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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:54 pm
by SpheresOfBalance
lancek4 wrote:SpheresOfBalance wrote:lancek4 wrote:Maybe we could alter our tac again in this discussion.
Since 'here we are', we posit a creator of 'this here-ness, as the world and such.
Is it knowable?
If so, in what way? If not, why?
Some ground rules??
I say lets leave any preconceived ideas of a god behind and only use a sort of newage logic from our relative perspectives. In other words lets not spend time either proving or disproving the man made god of old. Lets forge new territory in the possibility.
I believe that proof is something one should look at first. The fact of so many requirements for life as we know it, can be said to be indicators of creation. But then you can also see a chance percentage, due to the age and size of the universe.
Another consideration I recently acknowledged is that I believe it's kind of arrogant that we consider that only we, a so called product of chance, to be the only entities that are capable of creation. To me it seems more logical that those of creation ability were of creation.
Is there a possibility of a personal creator (god) one which communicates or listens or other wise interacts with the individual, or is there only dellusion, neurosis and insanity ?
I guess anythings possible, but i for one think that anyone that says he talks to a god is quite insane, but that's just me.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:30 pm
by lancek4
I'm asking: is it possible?
If it is just you that thinks one who says they talk to god is insane, then I guess you would say there is no possibility of a personal god? Or a creator that interactys with individuals.
I tend to agree with the insanity clause, but the I have to ask myself how do I infer there is a creator. And/or what does it mean that I can infer it.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:37 pm
by chaz wyman
lancek4 wrote:I'm asking: is it possible?
If it is just you that thinks one who says they talk to god is insane, then I guess you would say there is no possibility of a personal god? Or a creator that interactys with individuals.
I tend to agree with the insanity clause, but the I have to ask myself how do I infer there is a creator. And/or what does it mean that I can infer it.
As we all know; there ain't no Sanity Claus!
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:24 am
by Dimebag
It doesn't bother me if some people talk to god, as long as they acknowledge that they are doing so to make thoughts clearer, rather than because they actually can communicate with a god. I could talk to a person in my head called Marvin, who always helps me find the right choices, and it would be the same case. I am just reflecting on my own thoughts, as Marvin doesn't actually talk back, but rather Marvin is the embodiment of my tendency to notice that when I talk to "Marvin" I tend to find useful answers to my questions.
Maybe talking to god is just a natural tendency for people, a mental sounding board to bounce thoughts off. People who don't feel the need to talk to god most likely talk things over with themselves, or rather, think to themselves rather than converse with god. Either way, we need to have those conversations, whether it is with god or ourself, or Marvin, or a talking lamppost. But knowing the source of those returning thoughts is useful in composing an accurate world view.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:32 am
by chaz wyman
I sometimes talk to Darwin Joston the star of Assault on Precinct 13, who I knew very well back in 1981/2. He had a big personality; always had a very pragmatic and somewhat cynical outlook that used to cut through the crap.
"The thing of it is..." he would often say before giving his assessment of the situation.
He's been dead for years, but that does not mean I think I am talking to a ghost, as I used to talk to him when he was still living in the US.
His voice is a marker for me to behave with common sense.
I think that Theists have invented a God like an invisible friend with no more reality than my 'imaginary friend'.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:52 am
by lancek4
chaz wyman wrote:lancek4 wrote:I'm asking: is it possible?
If it is just you that thinks one who says they talk to god is insane, then I guess you would say there is no possibility of a personal god? Or a creator that interactys with individuals.
I tend to agree with the insanity clause, but the I have to ask myself how do I infer there is a creator. And/or what does it mean that I can infer it.
As we all know; there ain't no Sanity Claus!
Oh no; there aint no sanity clause? So great.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:16 am
by lancek4
The idea that we 'talk to ourselves' in an internal diaglouge to make decisions, I don't really see as the issue here.
Let's say I do this. And let's look at it the other way then. Is there a 'reaching' beyond that dialogue, in myself ? Can there be a real correspondence between this reaching beyond my self dialogue and the reality that I come upon ? What would this be?
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:01 am
by Bill Wiltrack
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A more subjective state?
Where you are able, slowly, to see yourself as an object?
You slowly realize that you are not that voice?
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:51 am
by lancek4
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
A more subjective state?
Where you are able, slowly, to see yourself as an object?
You slowly realize that you are not that voice?
-------LK4: yes...but not slowly: at once! Slowly I feel would leave greater chance for illusion.
And yet, were I to realize such an event or situation, it would still be me realizing.
I indicate a question of effect. If I am ultimatly contained in my knowledge, any knowledge that I might come upon would be merely me, again, knowing it.
So, is there a reaching to that is not this containment? In that the only way to know would be if reality itself was effected ? Such that not so much my knowing but rather the quality that is such knowing? Can such a change be made to occur by my self? If indeed I am contained at all times, in every way of knowing? Even if I have a knowing that I know (now) is beyond the containment ?
: can I will to go beyond my self? Is there a method by which I may escape the method?
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Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:00 am
by Bill Wiltrack
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I can't answer that.
.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:07 am
by lancek4
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
I can't answer that.
.
Though I am interested in people's takes for discussion on these posts -
Bill, I think your response here is the most correct answer.
And I don't think I would have thought of it. Lol
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:52 am
by Godfree
lancek4 wrote:Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
I can't answer that.
.
Though I am interested in people's takes for discussion on these posts -
Bill, I think your response here is the most correct answer.
And I don't think I would have thought of it. Lol
A method to escape the method ,???
wouldn't that be replace one method for another, your still trapped in your method , youv just tried a different one,
meditation is about losing self , giving up desire and just being ,
but it's you still , your mind is still in control ,
there is no spirit that takes over , and leads you to the knowledge ,
you just respond to pre-conditioning and like someone who has been hypnotized , you act out the experience of being calm and tranquil ,
the mind is a very powerful thing
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:30 pm
by lancek4
Godfree wrote:lancek4 wrote:Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
I can't answer that.
.
Though I am interested in people's takes for discussion on these posts -
Bill, I think your response here is the most correct answer.
And I don't think I would have thought of it. Lol
A method to escape the method ,???
wouldn't that be replace one method for another, your still trapped in your method , youv just tried a different one,
meditation is about losing self , giving up desire and just being ,
but it's you still , your mind is still in control ,
there is no spirit that takes over , and leads you to the knowledge ,
you just respond to pre-conditioning and like someone who has been hypnotized , you act out the experience of being calm and tranquil ,
the mind is a very powerful thing
Mediatation is a method to help the self, but it is a method which is only known of through my knowing (the method by which I know). Is there a way to get beyond this?
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:35 pm
by Arising_uk
What do you mean by this "non-linear", you mean adding pictures? Although more than funny that you appear to have to use words when you wish to actually communicate your thoughts, such as they are.
What do you mean by "philosophical communication"?
I will continue trying and using even more non-linear avenues whenever possible.
'God' help us!
At times I feel it is more important to seek opinions rather than express my own at certain times.
Nope, this is pretty much always the case.
I am acting as a porthole in bringing to-date information and the most recent commonly accepted facts and opinions here.
And yet when I point-out to you where you are in factual error when doing this you still continue to do so?
Do you understand what it is to have a philosophy and be a philosopher? I'll tell you, at base its to have an Ethics, an Epistemology, a Metaphysic and an understanding of Logic, you could also add a philosophy of politics, a philosophy of mind and a philosophy of language. All of them should hang together and reinforce each other. Have this and then you can call yourself a philosopher.
Re: What's stopping us from seeing the truth?
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:26 pm
by SpheresOfBalance
lancek4 wrote:I'm asking: is it possible?
If it is just you that thinks one who says they talk to god is insane, then I guess you would say there is no possibility of a personal god? Or a creator that interactys with individuals.
I tend to agree with the insanity clause, but the I have to ask myself how do I infer there is a creator. And/or what does it mean that I can infer it.
I don't know about everyone else, but for me it came from the question: "Why are we here?" Which gave way to: "What is the nature of our existence?" and: "What caused us to be here?" I saw that some believed in creation, (I lived on a cul de sac street overflowing with Catholics). Even though I've never attended church, even once, I tended to believe as a child, because I was surrounded. As I got older, tending to really love Science and Science Fiction, I learned of the conflict, believed to exit, between evolution and creation. I decided to superimpose them, as surely they 'could' both be true. Lately I had leaned toward the non existence of a creator, but not completely. Supposedly, even some cosmologists and physicists have been turning to creation due to recent findings. Though I actually see myself as sitting on the fence.
So what I'm saying is that my connection to creationism has nothing to do with 'the church' or 'any' religion. It is purely born of science in trying to answer the questions I mentioned above. I have never talked to the creator, and have always believed that people that pray and believe that their prayers have been answered, are merely accessing their own minds powers of belief (positive thinking, {psychosomatic's})
I believe that if there is such a force, it doesn't necessarily pay attention to it's creations, or if so it's a one way affair, and that it's just to see the current state of it's creation, probably with curiosity, such that it's all knowing as to creating but not necessarily in the outcome of the experiment.
As you can see I'm definitely not a traditionalist. My version of a, 'so called,' religion, is born of today's understanding of Science mixed only with the idea that it all may have started, not by accident, but on purpose. As far as, to what ends?, well, that's still to be determined.