Philosophy Now Forum

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:04 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:56 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:02 pm I still say agnosticism is the way to go. I'm not so sure about the god of the Hebrews. Could be a demon, a lesser spirit of whatever sort or could be a fiction invented by tribal elders and passed down from generation to generation like people tell their children about Santa Claus. It strikes me as odd that the creator of this vast universe is at all interested in one of the many creatures that sprung up on one relatively tiny rock within this seemingly infinite cosmic ocean. I suppose it's possible but one sort of looks at the seemingly random nature of natural disasters and the fact that anyone and everyone is a potential victim regardless of whether they are Christian or not and my first notion is that there's no "plan" to them at all. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, for me the jury is still out.

What "jury" ? You yourself are the jury. You don't wait for someone else to tell you what's what about God. You are an adult man so you decide what is good.

"The jury is out" is a popular idiom meaning something hasn't been decided yet. I'm referring to me in this case. I haven't seen any convincing evidence for anything yet.

'you' ARE ALIVE, and have, relatively, for a while now, while SEEING LOTS and LOTS of 'things', BUT 'you' STILL are NOT YET 'convinced of' absolutely ANY 'thing' AT ALL, YET, correct?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:02 pm Perhaps there is divinity, spirituality or whatever or perhaps there isn't. Personally, I think there is something to the radical transformative experiences of mystics, however, I'm not sure what it points to, whether it be some psychological phenomenon attained through extreme stresses on the mind of whatever sort or whether it's conversation with a spirit or divinity, I don't know. I suppose it would be nice to be able to question a mystic about their experiences, however, I don't know of any such people to question.

Who or what IS a so-called 'mystic', to you, EXACTLY?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:02 pm
Otherwise, it is highly unlikely that I'm going to sit in the lotus position for days on end anytime soon. I tend to fidget too much, especially with the anti-psychotic I'm on. I get "restless legs syndrome" often.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:12 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:08 pm you have ALREADY PROVED True that you are NOT OPEN to having your views criticized, challenged, NOR even questioned for clarity.

Sorry Age, you are not the man for the job.

LOL "attofishpi".

Just about ANY one can ASK CLARIFYING QUESTIONS. But ONLY those who KNOW what they are talking ABOUT CAN CLARIFY.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:57 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:02 pm I still say agnosticism is the way to go.

WHY does there HAVE TO BE 'one way', to go?

There doesn't. I'm throwing in my two cents. We're all certainly free to think what we want. I'm just saying agnosticism seems to me to be more open, universal and rational than pretty much any religion of any kind. I've actually started to feel a little more at peace with myself since I ditched Christianity. I still get irritated and/or depressed due to loneliness at times but Christianity didn't help me in that respect either. I just got that much more frustrated with God, thinking that my situation was his/her doing. It just wasn't my jam. And if someone else thinks I'm going to hell because I don't commit to Christ as my "savior" or whatever, then sorry. Tend your own garden is all I'll say.

ffs Gary. EVERYONE is agnostic - agnostic atheist agnostic theist agnostic bla bla (except me of course)

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:16 pmffs Gary.

Yes, Atto?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:16 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:16 pmffs Gary.

Yes, Atto?

Tell me about your agnosticism.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:18 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:16 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:16 pmffs Gary.

Yes, Atto?

Tell me about your agnosticism.

What do you want to know about "my" agnosticism?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:19 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:18 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:16 pm

Yes, Atto?

Tell me about your agnosticism.

What do you want to know about "my" agnosticism?

Well, you stated it is more rational than my belief in God and Christ. So am interested how? (keep in mind Love of Wisdom)

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:14 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:57 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:02 pm I still say agnosticism is the way to go.

WHY does there HAVE TO BE 'one way', to go?

There doesn't.

So, what OTHER 'ways' GO WITH so-called 'agnosticism'?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:14 pm I'm throwing in my two cents. We're all certainly free to think what we want. I'm just saying agnosticism seems to me to be more open, universal and rational than pretty much any religion of any kind.

WHY NOT just STAY Truly OPEN, INSTEAD of FOLLOWING ANY 'way', which may or may not be just MORE OPEN than some OTHER 'way'?

WHY does just BECOMING and REMAINING Truly OPEN SEEM like it is an IMPOSSIBLE 'thing' to do, for 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this is being written?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:14 pm I've actually started to feel a little more at peace with myself since I ditched Christianity. I still get irritated and/or depressed due to loneliness at times but Christianity didn't help me in that respect either. I just got that much more frustrated with God, thinking that my situation was his/her doing. It just wasn't my jam. And if someone else thinks I'm going to hell because I don't commit to Christ as my "savior" or whatever, then sorry. Tend your own garden is all I'll say.

Okay, but, ONCE AGAIN, I just asked a CLARIFYING QUESTION about SOME 'thing', which REALLY you answered in the first two words, and EVERY thing else here was just OFF TOPIC, REALLY.

you ANSWERED my QUESTION by saying, that there does NOT have to be 'ONE WAY TO GO'.

So, GREAT now that you HAVE ANSWERED 'that', what OTHER 'ways' GO WITH 'agnosticism', if you have NOT YET ANSWERED 'this QUESTION', ALREADY?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:22 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:19 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:18 pm

Tell me about your agnosticism.

What do you want to know about "my" agnosticism?

Well, you stated it is more rational than my belief in God and Christ. So am interested how? (keep in mind Love of Wisdom)

Just about ANY 'thing' is MORE 'rational' than HAVING a BELIEF IN a 'thing', which one, REALLY, does NOT have ANY REAL 'idea' NOR 'clue' ABOUT.

But, 'each to their own', as some say.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:22 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:19 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:18 pm

Tell me about your agnosticism.

What do you want to know about "my" agnosticism?

Well, you stated it is more rational than my belief in God and Christ. So am interested how? (keep in mind Love of Wisdom)

I don't think matters having to do with supposed spirits, divinities or an afterlife are anything I can rationally deduce from any sort of evidence in this world. I can interpret my experiences in various ways and if I approach it rationally, then I have to say that I've never come across anything indicating that such things exist and even if a voice came out of the blue and said, "I am God", then I don't see how I could be sure that it is in fact God or which God it in fact is, because my first thought is how could any divinity or spirit possibly approach me that I couldn't second guess myself later and say, "was it a dream? Did I have a psychotic episode? Is it in fact the being that created everything?" I mean, I don't know how I could rationally tell one way or the other if I gave it further reflection.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:31 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:22 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:19 pm

What do you want to know about "my" agnosticism?

Well, you stated it is more rational than my belief in God and Christ. So am interested how? (keep in mind Love of Wisdom)

I don't think matters having to do with supposed spirits, divinities or an afterlife are anything I can rationally deduce from any sort of evidence in this world. I can interpret my experiences in various ways and if I approach it rationally, then I have to say that I've never come across anything indicating that such things exist and even if a voice came out of the blue and said, "I am God", then I don't see how I could be sure that it is in fact God or which God it in fact is, because my first thought is how could any divinity or spirit possibly approach me that I couldn't second guess myself later and say, "was it a dream? Did I have a psychotic episode? Is it in fact the being that created everything?" I mean, I don't know how I could rationally tell one way or the other if I gave it further reflection.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes, I would agree with that - a single sentance "I am God" would not convince me. Why have you ditched believing in the life of Christ?

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:27 pm So, GREAT now that you HAVE ANSWERED 'that', what OTHER 'ways' GO WITH 'agnosticism', if you have NOT YET ANSWERED 'this QUESTION', ALREADY?

I'm not sure what you mean by "go with". Are you saying what other ways do not conflict with agnosticism or are you saying what other ways does agnosticism conflict with?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:35 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:31 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:22 pm

Well, you stated it is more rational than my belief in God and Christ. So am interested how? (keep in mind Love of Wisdom)

I don't think matters having to do with supposed spirits, divinities or an afterlife are anything I can rationally deduce from any sort of evidence in this world. I can interpret my experiences in various ways and if I approach it rationally, then I have to say that I've never come across anything indicating that such things exist and even if a voice came out of the blue and said, "I am God", then I don't see how I could be sure that it is in fact God or which God it in fact is, because my first thought is how could any divinity or spirit possibly approach me that I couldn't second guess myself later and say, "was it a dream? Did I have a psychotic episode? Is it in fact the being that created everything?" I mean, I don't know how I could rationally tell one way or the other if I gave it further reflection.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes, I would agree with that - a single sentance "I am God" would not convince me. Why have you ditched believing in the life of Christ?

I suspect Christ might have been an ordinary person who had an incredibly intense mystical experience. That isn't to say that he wasn't right about many things or made good sense in many ways. I'm just not sure he was the creator of the whole universe as alleged in the Bible. Perhaps he was referring to what other mystics not too far away from his neck of the woods would call brahman or atman or something.

NOTE: I'm not necessarily buying into the notion of brahman or atman being the way things are either. They could be wrong too. But I'm more inclined to think that all cultures have some kind of contact with whatever it is that mystics experience. How a person interprets that experience could just be a matter of picking up learned cultural beliefs and applying them to what mystics otherwise typically say is ineffable or unable to be described with words. Apparently, words distort the experience. However, mystics typically want to convey their experience to others and how to have that experience. So words or mimicking actions of the mystic are sometimes necessary even though the experience itself is (apparently) ineffable.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:40 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:35 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:31 pm

I don't think matters having to do with supposed spirits, divinities or an afterlife are anything I can rationally deduce from any sort of evidence in this world. I can interpret my experiences in various ways and if I approach it rationally, then I have to say that I've never come across anything indicating that such things exist and even if a voice came out of the blue and said, "I am God", then I don't see how I could be sure that it is in fact God or which God it in fact is, because my first thought is how could any divinity or spirit possibly approach me that I couldn't second guess myself later and say, "was it a dream? Did I have a psychotic episode? Is it in fact the being that created everything?" I mean, I don't know how I could rationally tell one way or the other if I gave it further reflection.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes, I would agree with that - a single sentance "I am God" would not convince me. Why have you ditched believing in the life of Christ?

I suspect Christ might have been an ordinary person who had an incredibly intense mystical experience. That isn't to say that he wasn't right about many things or made good sense in many ways. I'm just not sure he was the creator of the whole universe as alleged in the Bible. Perhaps he was brahman or atman or something.

It doesn't state anywhere in the Bible that God or indeed Christ created the 'whole universe'.

Do you honestly think a man would go to a terrible form of death stating he is the Son of God if he wasn't AND all accounts of those around that scribed his life, miracles, resurrection were all making it up. (people have little faith in people - me for example on account of esoteric matters)

PS, call God Brahman if you want who cares? I went to a Hindu Temple today - had an interesting chat to whatever this dude was - equivalent to a priest.

Gazza wrote:NOTE: I'm not necessarily buying into the notion of brahman or atman being the way things are either. They could be wrong too. But I'm more inclined to think that all cultures have some kind of contact with whatever it is that mystics experience.

Yes...I don't think any of these people are wrong unless they start to discount the accounts of 'prophets' and 'gurus' without consideration of the culture that God has made itself know to these people within their culture.

..and on that note, this Hindu equivalent of a priest when I told him I am a Christian - got his back up and started to tell me Hinduism was the real deal (cant remember his words) and I jumped in and said I am not your typical Christian - I believe in your religion, that Brahma is the God and my Christ is part of that, He changed his tune and started to teach me stuff, and then i did the red stripe for Vishnu. (NB it was just me and him i a tiny temple)

Gazza wrote:How a person interprets that experience could just be a matter of picking up learned cultural beliefs and applying them to what mystics otherwise typically say is ineffable or unable to describe with words.

I think anyone that closes their mind to any major religion is short of sight and not seeking wisdom. Of course, I believe that Christ is the key to know God especially since...I now know IT exists.
That's not to say others might know God via other religions, but to understand heaven on Earth requires the TESTS of the TEST_amen_T. ...and for me, without keeping faith in Christ (all that 'oh ye of little faith') I would have failed.

If you ever decide to believe in the life of Christ again, do so on a personal level - don't bother with all the other sheep and their prejudices. Christ was a bit of a loner or at least an individual, wasn't bothered about getting out there for all, and he wasn't meek either, he didn't take shit and nor does God.

Solace for you mind is just sitting in a beautiful Church or Cathedral - eventually, you will comprehend I am certain.