Christianity

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Harry Baird wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:43 am I think that helps. I expect that you'd agree with this, but let me know:

Even though you accept that, strictly speaking, in virtue of its standard meaning, "the divine" denotes a God or gods (of some description or other), and even though you accept that because theism is simply belief in God or gods (of some description or other), (your) belief in the divine entails a belief in God or gods and hence entails theism, you prefer not to explicitly use the word "God" (or "gods") in this context, nor to explicitly endorse theism, because of what you perceive to be the dogmatic connotations of those terms.
No, I do not believe in God or gods. I use the word 'divine' because I don't know of another better word to represent the natural creative energy that flows and manifests throughout all without a separate identity. The idea of God or gods typically represents some kind of division/distinction between such gods and all else. It's challenging for me to describe my way of thinking about 'the divine' because theists tend to want to assign their own labels/designations, which ends up being (from my perspective) like trying to separate a droplet from the ocean it is in. That's what doesn't fit for me.

I think separation is a human illusion.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16929
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Christianity

Post by Dontaskme »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:31 am
Harry Baird wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:43 am I think that helps. I expect that you'd agree with this, but let me know:

Even though you accept that, strictly speaking, in virtue of its standard meaning, "the divine" denotes a God or gods (of some description or other), and even though you accept that because theism is simply belief in God or gods (of some description or other), (your) belief in the divine entails a belief in God or gods and hence entails theism, you prefer not to explicitly use the word "God" (or "gods") in this context, nor to explicitly endorse theism, because of what you perceive to be the dogmatic connotations of those terms.
No, I do not believe in God or gods. I use the word 'divine' because I don't know of another better word to represent the natural creative energy that flows and manifests throughout all without a separate identity. The idea of God or gods typically represents some kind of division/distinction between such gods and all else. It's challenging for me to describe my way of thinking about 'the divine' because theists tend to want to assign their own labels/designations, which ends up being (from my perspective) like trying to separate a droplet from the ocean it is in. That's what doesn't fit for me.

I think separation is a human illusion.
👍
Harry Baird
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:14 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Harry Baird »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:31 am No, I do not believe in God or gods. I use the word 'divine' because I don't know of another better word to represent the natural creative energy that flows and manifests throughout all without a separate identity. The idea of God or gods typically represents some kind of division/distinction between such gods and all else. It's challenging for me to describe my way of thinking about 'the divine' because theists tend to want to assign their own labels/designations, which ends up being (from my perspective) like trying to separate a droplet from the ocean it is in. That's what doesn't fit for me.

I think separation is a human illusion.
Oh, well, then, it seems that my initial interpretation, and atto's criticism, were correct after all.

So: I get that you're using "divine" in a non-standard sense because you can't come up with a better word, but in the standard sense, as anybody can look up in a dictionary, it really does entail the existence of a God or gods.

It seems to me that if you were to want to honour the standard sense of the word "divine" as well as to honour your view that there is no separation, you might argue for a sort of pantheistic or idealistic view: that God is everything. The only problem I see with that is that then everything would be "divine", making it impossible to distinguish "divine" light from "ordinary" light (or divine anything from "ordinary" anything), which, it seems, is what you were trying to do in the first place (or maybe I'm wrong about this, and misunderstanding?).

Anyhow, it's a semantic point - and, again, I get that you're using the word in a non-standard sense - but atto's criticism here was on point...
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8301
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:31 amNo, I do not believe in God or gods. I use the word 'divine' because I don't know of another better word to represent the natural creative energy that flows and manifests throughout all without a separate identity.
The term ‘divine’ then in your discourse might need to be revised.
[Middle English, from Old French devine, from Latin dīvīnus, divine, foreseeing, from dīvus, god; see dyeu- in Indo-European roots. V., Middle English divinen, from Old French deviner, from Latin dīvīnāre, from dīvīnus.]
di•vine (dɪˈvaɪn)

adj. -vin•er, -vin•est, adj.
1. of, like, or from a god, esp. the Supreme Being.
2. addressed or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3. heavenly; celestial: the divine kingdom.
4. Informal. extremely good; unusually lovely.
5. being a god; being God.
6. of superhuman or surpassing excellence.
7. Obs. of or pertaining to divinity or theology.
n.
8. a theologian; scholar in religion.
9. a priest or cleric.
10. the Divine,
a. God.
b. the spiritual aspect in humans regarded as godly or godlike.
v.t.
11. to discover or declare by divination; prophesy.
12. to discover (water, metal, etc.) by means of a divining rod.
13. to perceive by intuition or insight; conjecture.
14. Archaic. to portend.
v.i.
15. to use or practice divination; prophesy.
16. to have perception by intuition or insight; conjecture.
[1275–1325; « Latin dīvīnus=dīv(us) god + -īnus -ine1; (v.) Middle English (< Old French deviner) < Latin dīvīnāre, derivative of dīvīnus]
Dyēus

The most constant epithet associated with *Dyēus is "father" (*ph2tḗr). The term "Father " Dyēus was inherited in the Vedic Dyáuṣ Pitṛ́, Greek Zeus Patēr, Illyrian Dei-pátrous, Roman Jupiter (*Djous patēr), even in the form of "dad" or "papa" in the Scythian Papaios for Zeus, or the Palaic expression Tiyaz papaz. The epithet *Ph2tḗr Ǵenh1-tōr ("Father Procreator") is also attested in the Vedic, Iranian, Greek, and perhaps the Roman ritual traditions.
Interesting how language and the demands of description both clarify and muddle ….

To say anything about our world is to describe, and saying anything implies a decisive choice.

Can one say and then retract? I am not so much referring to you as to all of us.
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8301
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Harry Baird wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:04 pm Anyhow, it's a semantic point - and, again, I get that you're using the word in a non-standard sense - but atto's criticism here was on point...
See definition No 4 above.

Semantic? Yes, technically, or perhaps fundamentally.
se·man·tic (sĭ-măn′tĭk) also se·man·ti·cal (-tĭ-kəl)
adj.
1. Of or relating to meaning, especially meaning in language.
2. Of, relating to, or according to the science of semantics.
[French sémantique, from Greek sēmantikos, significant, from sēmantos, marked, from sēmainein, sēman-, to signify, from sēma, sign.]
Sign, symbol, reference, designation, description.

Our ‘science view’ has upended and at times vacated our semiotics!

“Say what you mean!” becomes impossible when we do not know what we mean anymore.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 4302
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:31 am
Harry Baird wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:43 am I think that helps. I expect that you'd agree with this, but let me know:

Even though you accept that, strictly speaking, in virtue of its standard meaning, "the divine" denotes a God or gods (of some description or other), and even though you accept that because theism is simply belief in God or gods (of some description or other), (your) belief in the divine entails a belief in God or gods and hence entails theism, you prefer not to explicitly use the word "God" (or "gods") in this context, nor to explicitly endorse theism, because of what you perceive to be the dogmatic connotations of those terms.
No, I do not believe in God or gods. I use the word 'divine' because I don't know of another better word to represent the natural creative energy that flows and manifests throughout all without a separate identity. The idea of God or gods typically represents some kind of division/distinction between such gods and all else. It's challenging for me to describe my way of thinking about 'the divine' because theists tend to want to assign their own labels/designations, which ends up being (from my perspective) like trying to separate a droplet from the ocean it is in. That's what doesn't fit for me.
Is the thing you call "divine" conscious in its own right? Or is it some sort of force connected to and/or creating other consciousness, but doesn't have its own distinct consciousness?
Harry Baird
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:14 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Harry Baird »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:35 pm See definition No 4 above.
Mmm. Maybe that fits. I'm not so sure it's what Lacewing is getting at though.

I mean, in that sense, after your friend has served you your favourite dish, you might say, "That meal was simply divine!" Or, after watching a performance by your favourite musician, you might say, "Wow. I can't get over it. Her singing is just divine!"

Is that really what Lacewing's getting at though? "This natural creative energy that flows and manifests throughout all is just divine, darling!"

Am I being unfair in my framing here?
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8301
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Harry Baird wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:55 amI've always been puzzled by this about you, that you are in a way both a theist and an atheist. You have had, and in a way endorse the divine implications of, mystical or spiritual experiences, yet at the same time you more or less explicitly reject the objective existence of a deity or deities, preferring to see deity or deities as (mere[1]) "inner", human constructs.
What you are puzzled by is, I think, that we have a severe designation and description problem that we cannot resolve. As a side-note I have been reading On the Nature of the Gods by Cicero (while simultaneously realizing, though others seem to be blocked in this, for reasons incomprehensible to me, that it is highly likely I am a later incarnation of Cicero, but let's leave that aside for the moment ...) But let me jump ahead and say that any description of god or gods will immediately bog one down into the problem of description.

So for example you say you are a dualist in something of the Gnostic sense. God might wish to but god cannot intervene in this world -- he does not have the power. My view? You are describing a sentimental and lyrical sense of things, perhaps even emotional. But try to describe what, where, who and how that god you define (the 'pole' of the duality) and you will bog down within an impossible explanation problem. If you review a few pages of my former essay [when I was Cicero) you will note that the 'description problem' is quite acute.

So, yes, I am a theist in some sense: I have had experiences of the solipsistic nature you accurately described which make it largely impossible that I would deny 'divinity' in the actual, and original, sense of the world going back to Indo-European designations that are at the root of our language. But what is language? A set of assignments and designations. The way one's sense of 'what is' is described. Our language is a graveyard in a sense, or a 'living garden' if you are in a more positive mood, that expresses our perceptual system.

Does 'god' operate in Nature? Say in a world where no men are? How? Why? There is no need of a god who intervenes in Nature. Nature carries on in its biological and mechanical way and animal-cunning is the brightest light that shines in it. Do you agree or disagree? Cunning intelligence is actually a Greek category (and once I went into this on that other forum you participated in).

My categories are pragmatic: I can define the effect of something I sense to be 'divine' that operates within my consciousness. But if that is so everything depends on 'honing my relationship to that'. It is internal, not external.

I fully agree that The World and life's manifestation is absolutely beyond comprehension. Existence and 'that things exist' is the thing that we do not seem to examine squarely. So who does? Mystics do. And then they jibber-jabber about what they believe they are seeing or experiencing and try to apply categories and designations which are romantic and poetic (or simply mystic).

I don't have the time to go into it but I have come to realize that -- for me in any case -- a good way to appreciate the Christian mythology is to see that Christ is best understood as the disembodied Osiris, and Mary as Isis who collects and assembles the scattered pieces of the (divine) body. The figure of Isis is 'the goddess' and the goddess is Nature (as in De Rerum Nature: see the opening to Lucretius). The goddess is feminine as nature is corporeal and feminine.

Masculinity, and the mind, and the conceptual mind, is what I think we are dealing on essentially here. That which sees, that which organizes perception, that which designates.

This is sort of an aside but if there is power in iconographic representations, and I think there is, the Christian/Catholic imago of Mary pining over the dead Christ (and much of the latent symbolism in the entire iconographic set) has deep resonance in our Occidental consciousness. The issue arises through literalism -- taking it all literally.

Once one begins to see through Story one can actually see what the story is representing. But as I say, and I think it true, the only field that has relevance is our inner field. And the reference to interject here is, again, that of Plato's Cave. What are we seeing? How do we see? And what does our seeing induce in us.

When I was Cicero other business drew my attention away from these issues and, alas! I could not develop my ideas. But now, finally, I have put all of this into my Ten Week Email Isis-Osirus Revelation Course.
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8301
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Harry Baird wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:43 pmMmm. Maybe that fits. I'm not so sure it's what Lacewing is getting at though.
I’m chary to kick the hornets 🐝 nest — or rile the Hornet — but Lacewing doesn’t actually know what she means. She seeks to dissolve designation. They pain her, they bother her, because of the nature of implicationi.

Better diffuse descriptions neither fish nor fowl.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 13319
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:35 pm
Harry Baird wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:43 pmMmm. Maybe that fits. I'm not so sure it's what Lacewing is getting at though.
I’m chary to kick the hornets 🐝 nest — or rile the Hornet — but Lacewing doesn’t actually know what she means. She seeks to dissolve designation. They pain her, they bother her, because of the nature of implicationi.

Better diffuse descriptions neither fish nor fowl.
Lacewing still wants to hang with the cool kids (atheists) but alas deep inside she knows she has a form of theism, just can't bring herself to admit it.

Someone tell her that some of us theists are cool kids too..! 8) <-- see
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 13319
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

CHESS JURIST & THE PASSAGE OF TIME
Image


Notice the anagram? (two words combined) 8)

CHESS JURIST & THE PASSAGE OF TIME
(JESUS CHRIST & THE PASSAGE OF TIME)
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 13319
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Alexis Jacobi wrote:This is sort of an aside but if there is power in iconographic representations, and I think there is, the Christian/Catholic imago of Mary pining over the dead Christ (and much of the latent symbolism in the entire iconographic set) has deep resonance in our Occidental consciousness. The issue arises through literalism -- taking it all literally.
The life of Jesus the Christ IS literally true.

Alexis, have you found a fault with my assertion that I am a Christian?
Harry Baird
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:14 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Harry Baird »

An interesting turn of conversation, AJ.

Briefly, because I don't have the mental stamina for more (nor the desire to bore with jibber-jabber):
  • I'm not sure how you square God-as-only-within-you with (God being capable of causing) external events such as the song synchronously playing on the bus.
  • I anyway "forgive" you the difficulties of (with) your position, because my own has difficulties too, which I hope you, too, "forgive".
  • I completed your homework assignment (I've made it to page ten so far - it's good stuff) and freely acknowledge that this (the nature of divinity) is a... fraught and uncertain... area.
  • That said, the two things that I (think we should) most take into account when considering the existence and nature of divinity are:
    1. The design in/of this reality.
    2. The existence of *both* good and evil within it.
    These are what most motivate my dualism: our reality appears to have been designed by a highly sophisticated higher power, which, in that sophistication, presumably recognises and desires goodness (as even we mere created beings do), but our reality is *not* all good as we would expect it to be were those *solely* the facts in this context.
  • The main problems to be resolved (for me, on my view) are:
    1. Why God does not - seems to lack the power to - intervene more to oppose evil, when even we mere created beings *do* have that power, and regularly use it.
    2. Why God does not - as the General, so to speak - communicate more, and more explicitly and verbally, with his "soldiers". It is a strange war in which the troops are more or less left to their own devices.
    3. Why the duality given a (presumably) singular Source?
Finally, a direct response to the direct questions you put to me:
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:31 pm Does 'god' operate in Nature? Say in a world where no men are?
I don't see a meaningful difference in this context between humans and other life forms, so, my answer has to be that the extent to which God operates in a world with humans in it is not meaningfully different to the extent to which God operates in a world without humans (but with other conscious beings) in it.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:31 pm How?
*Shrugs*. Dunno, but, in general: presumably, using the same or similar means by which Nature was created in the first place (whatever those are/were).
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:31 pm Why?
Maybe because communion - in/as creative relationship - is the whole point of Creation, and thus God seeks both to actualise it as well as to remove impediments to it.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:31 pm There is no need of a god who intervenes in Nature. Nature carries on in its biological and mechanical way and animal-cunning is the brightest light that shines in it. Do you agree or disagree?
I disagree (see above) but "it's complicated": my disagreement is predicated on my premises and inferences, which are only provisional, and which in any case seem to differ from yours, which have their own force.
Harry Baird
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:14 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Harry Baird »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:35 pm I’m chary to kick the hornets 🐝 nest — or rile the Hornet — but Lacewing doesn’t actually know what she means. She seeks to dissolve designation. They pain her, they bother her, because of the nature of implicationi.

Better diffuse descriptions neither fish nor fowl.
Lacewing! It's time to float like a butterfly; sting like a... hornet?...
Harry Baird
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:14 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by Harry Baird »

While we're criticising one another over semantics...
attofishpi wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:02 pm Notice the anagram? (two words combined) 8)
...dare I point out that "two words combined" is not the definition of "anagram"...?...

(I hope I still get to hang out with the cool theists after that...)
Post Reply