Philosophy Now Forum

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:03 pm (or maybe I am being cunning and making Gary think I am weakened in thought)

That's right, atto: harness the ambiguity. Keep him guessing.

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:05 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:03 pm (or maybe I am being cunning and making Gary think I am weakened in thought)

That's right, atto: harness the ambiguity. Keep him guessing.

I was just chatting to the delivery person...she works 9am to 10pm 5 days a week and gets paid 15000 rupees (*$270)...wow

..hence I gave her a nice tip (probably will pay her rent for the month!)

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:13 pm I was just chatting to the delivery person...she works 9am to 10pm 5 days a week and gets paid 15000 rupees (*$270)...wow

..hence I gave her a nice tip (probably will pay her rent for the month!)

That's very Christian of you, so, topical. However, I suspect folk are like: "Hey, we were promised fisticuffs, not light-hearted banter and friendly chit-chat. One of you throw a punch, or GTFO."

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:18 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:13 pm I was just chatting to the delivery person...she works 9am to 10pm 5 days a week and gets paid 15000 rupees (*$270)...wow

..hence I gave her a nice tip (probably will pay her rent for the month!)

That's very Christian of you, so, topical. However, I suspect folk are like: "Hey, we were promised fisticuffs, not light-hearted banter and friendly chit-chat. One of you throw a punch, or GTFO."

I think when Gary gets back from Church he will be a new man, ready to walk the dimension of the light. Us Christians rarely feel the need to throw punches, do we Gazza?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:21 pm I think when Gary gets back from Church he will be a new man, ready to walk the dimension of the light. Us Christians rarely feel the need to throw punches, do we Gazza?

Oh, so that's where he is. Good for him. Better the pew than pugilism.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:58 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:44 am There are, and have been, countless people who have reflected the brightness of divine light in many extraordinary ways throughout human time and humankind. It is absolutely ridiculous to think such divine light is limited to only certain theist ideas.

Please do tell how I am limited and absolutely ridiculous in my Christian beliefs. And go ahead, explain how you have some 'philosophical' insight beyond what my mind is restricted to simply by being theist.

How could you possibly think that you know everything, and that your understanding has no limitations? How could you possibly think that what you see is the ONLY divine light, or the only way for seeing it? Your mind is evidently too closed to comprehend what is being said without distorting it. Your intoxication is flowing on all levels.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:11 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:58 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:44 am There are, and have been, countless people who have reflected the brightness of divine light in many extraordinary ways throughout human time and humankind. It is absolutely ridiculous to think such divine light is limited to only certain theist ideas.

Please do tell how I am limited and absolutely ridiculous in my Christian beliefs. And go ahead, explain how you have some 'philosophical' insight beyond what my mind is restricted to simply by being theist.

How could you possibly think that you know everything, and that your understanding has no limitations?

THERE YA GO!!! Look at Lacewing and all her assumptions.!!! Where do I ever state I know EVERYTHING? ..and that my understanding has NO limitations!!?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:11 pm How could you possibly think that what you see is the ONLY divine light, or the only way for seeing it?

AGAIN. Where am I insisting that what I think is the ONLY "divine" light bla ....bla,...bla ...u keep posting idiotic statements about me, lmao.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:11 pm Your mind is evidently too closed to comprehend what is being said without distorting it. Your intoxication is flowing on all levels.

Really? That idiocy is comparable to me stating that your ankles are spread wide after being given 10 bucks. My mind is closed but your legs are spread

Lacewing wrote: There are, and have been, countless people who have reflected the brightness of divine light in many extraordinary ways throughout human time and humankind.

Do you agree with this? If no, why not?

Lacewing wrote:It is absolutely ridiculous to think such divine light is limited to only certain theist ideas.

Do you agree with this? If no, why not?

Even various theist traditions do not agree with each other and think that only they, themselves, are seeing the truth of what is divine. How can that be possible or intelligent? Why would the divine be so limited to any singular or particular set of human ideas?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:37 am Nah, he's obviously come to his senses to real eyes that atto is telling the truth...re Christ. (fuck "Christianity" ...woteva that is currently)

But you see (though I am not sure you do see) that when you refer to *Christianity* you are not referring to historical Christianity, or conventional Christianity, nor to established doctrine, nor to the cultural matrix out of which the Christian synthesis arose. Thus Christianity, for you, is completely personal and idiosyncratic. If this seems like a critique it is not. In fact my observation is constructive not critical.

What you do not seem to me to understand is that no one can enter into your experience because, as I say, it is completely idiosyncratic.

Now, when faced with someone -- you in this case -- who presents himself and his relationship to Christ within this context (a discussion forum with philosophical pretensions) you surely must understand that I am forced to interpret you. Since your relation to and involvement in a spiritual relationship is so totally unconventional I cannot see it as 'Christianity' really, not in any conventional sense, and I can only see it as artistic mysticism.

Clarifications involve analysis, and all analysis is a form of 'taking apart' and breaking down into parts. So by saying what I have said there is a negative aspect which seems critical and not constructive, except that is not my intent.

Yes AJ, I respect and under_stand your analysis of moi. Off for some grub...will get back to you...but to truly understand anything of anything is to attempt to remain rational about everything...including the bible. If something doesn't compute, then consider Y, consider the reason it was still permitted to be part of that scipture...but ditch it nontheless.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:39 pm

Lacewing wrote: There are, and have been, countless people who have reflected the brightness of divine light in many extraordinary ways throughout human time and humankind.

Do you agree with this? If no, why not?

Lacewing wrote:It is absolutely ridiculous to think such divine light is limited to only certain theist ideas.

Do you agree with this? If no, why not?

Even various theist traditions do not agree with each other and think that only they, themselves, are seeing the truth of what is divine. How can that be possible or intelligent? Why would the divine be so limited to any singular or particular set of human ideas?

...and now she argues with herself.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:46 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:39 pm

Lacewing wrote: There are, and have been, countless people who have reflected the brightness of divine light in many extraordinary ways throughout human time and humankind.

Do you agree with this? If no, why not?

Lacewing wrote:It is absolutely ridiculous to think such divine light is limited to only certain theist ideas.

Do you agree with this? If no, why not?

Even various theist traditions do not agree with each other and think that only they, themselves, are seeing the truth of what is divine. How can that be possible or intelligent? Why would the divine be so limited to any singular or particular set of human ideas?

...and now she argues with herself.

Why are you being so rude?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:06 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:46 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:39 pm
Do you agree with this? If no, why not?


Do you agree with this? If no, why not?

Even various theist traditions do not agree with each other and think that only they, themselves, are seeing the truth of what is divine. How can that be possible or intelligent? Why would the divine be so limited to any singular or particular set of human ideas?

...and now she argues with herself.

Why are you being so rude?

I often argue with myself. It's a mark of stupidity to jump on board ideas without reflection. I'd not argue with a drunk man because a drunk man can't think of alternatives.

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:22 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:06 amhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ImKY6TZEyrI

Love that song. I'm very glad to be reminded of it.

I am always interested in the popular song as a vehicle for truth and value, but I find Mazzy Star's song to be less comprehensible than, say, Shine. I'd heard both but never really paid attention to the lyrics. Looking up the lyrics I can sort of sense what Mazzy Star is getting at but it never quite develops a full hook.

I recall sitting on public transport on Isla Margarita (Venezuela) some years back. It is quite hard to explain the psychic state I was in but a tremendous love felt, that could never materialize, was some part of it. Psychically opened, this song came on the radio in the bus (unusual in itself because I was in Latin America) and I felt that the *above* was communicating with the *below*. Something above and outside of myself made itself known through 'spiritualized sentiments'. What is that? It is a metaphor, right? The 'sky opens'. An angel appears in the heavens. One hears a celestial voice or a celestial tune.

The connotation is interesting both in the context of Christian mythology and that of Vaishnavism (the religious mythology of Vishnu). See, we have been talking about, or in any case I have been talking about, the nature of the world which is, when examined soberly, both an amazing cathedral and a terrifying and essentially cruel place. I ask your indulgence when you consider the word 'cruel' because I mean it very precisely. Life literally feeds on other lives. From bottom to top this is 'the way things are'. And in one way or another, inevitably, what is alive is killed and feasted on in an unending, eternal cycle. The lion will never lie with the lamb. And yet we assign value, we emulate, we elevate our projection of hope that, one day, the very nature of life will resolve itself into a harmony that we can live with. Because when you examine the facts our human issue is that we cannot quite face the facts. Facing the facts *kills us* in some sense. Facing the facts produces 'nihilism' and nihilism is really the end result of taking the 'science view' to its logical and necessary extreme.

So what is it then that 'intrudes' into our awareness? The 'voice' that shines in (to refer to the song Shine and the sentiment expressed through it) to our quotidian consciousness which is often not very content, not peaceful? It is a longing for a transcendent resolution. And oddly enough, from time to time, that experienced state flows in like an incomprehensible wind through an open window. I have a feeling that everyone knows of this, but then I have more faith in the 'lyrical' side of man's awareness than in the literalist side. I say that we cannot really live within literalism. Similarly, we cannot really live within this world as it really is.

If you're lost you can look and you will find me
Time after time
If you fall I will catch you, I'll be waiting
Time after time
If you're lost, you can look and you will find me
Time after time
If you fall, I will catch you, I will be waiting
Time after time
Time after time

I admit that when written out, and when looked at somewhat cynically, the sentiments can seem maudlin. But what interests me is the concept or the *trope*.

Now in the Christian sense it is that of 'salvation' from out of a situation and a mess that, in fact, is irresolvable. The Earth and terrestrial life is, in Christian eyes, irresolvable. In order to be resolved it has to be returned to its original state or it must be transformed from what it is into something it is not. Something completely transmuted. The Earth in some perfected state.

But we know this will never happen.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:09 pm I'd not argue with a drunk man because a drunk man can't think of alternatives.

Indeed. And it appears that drunkenness can be a state of mind.