Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:38 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:54 pm
Well, what would you use, instead?
Carl Sagan is credited with saying, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
Yeah. He was no philosopher, for sure.
He thought that "extraordinary" was an easy-to-determine property.
The phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is often attributed to the late astronomer and science communicator Carl Sagan. However, the idea itself has been around for a long time and can be traced back to various philosophers and thinkers throughout history, including David Hume. Hume, as far as I know, was a philosopher.
However, more importantly, when we're talking about Atheism, the only claim being made is the Atheist claim, "There is no God." And if the Atheist is happy to say, "It's just a wish of mine," then there's no problem; he can (dis)believe whatever he wants. But Atheists are not happy being exposed as mere "wishers." They prefer to say their belief is "rational." And if it is, it needs evidence. Sagan's axiom would mean they need very, very extraordinary evidence indeed. And we know what it would be: and we can be quite certain that they don't have it.
It's true that what is considered "extraordinary" can be subjective and varies among individuals and cultures. However, the point of the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is that when a claim is made that goes against the current understanding of the natural world, it requires stronger evidence than a claim that is consistent with what we already know.
While it's true that belief in a deity has been common throughout history and across cultures, it's important to remember that the popularity of a belief does not necessarily make it more likely to be true. Many beliefs that were once widely held, such as a geocentric view of the universe, have been shown to be false through scientific inquiry.
Furthermore, while it's true that most people in the world hold some form of religious belief, it's also worth noting that belief in a particular deity or set of deities varies widely by region and culture. Additionally, the number of people who identify as atheists or agnostics is growing, and there is a long history of atheist and agnostic thought in philosophy and intellectual discourse.
But it's worse then that, if, as you said earlier, Atheists want to have an opinion about what OTHER people believe, not just about what they, themselves get to believe. For if they have an opinion about what others OUGHT to believe, then they owe proof for sure. And if they can't supply it, then on what basis are they insisting their (dis)belief is either evidentiary or relevant to other people? That's really going to ruin their "mal-evangelism" plans.
It's important to distinguish between the right to believe something and the right to express an opinion about what others believe. Atheists, like anyone else, have the right to their own beliefs and opinions, and they are free to express them as long as they do not violate the rights of others.
Regarding the question of whether atheists owe proof for their beliefs, it's worth noting that the burden of proof typically lies with the person making a positive claim. In other words, if someone claims that a deity exists, they are the one who needs to provide evidence to support that claim. Atheists, on the other hand, are simply rejecting that claim due to a lack of evidence. They are not necessarily making a positive claim of their own.
However, when atheists express their opinions about what others believe, it's reasonable to expect them to provide a logical and evidence-based argument to support their position. It's also worth noting that atheists, like anyone else, may have a variety of reasons for expressing their opinions about religion or belief in a deity. Some may do so out of a desire to engage in philosophical or intellectual discourse, while others may do so out of a desire to promote secularism or challenge what they see as harmful or oppressive religious practices.
