Philosophy Now Forum

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 11:35 am Once they have gotten so out of hand that you are willing to just scoop up and murder millions of people, again, without due process or legal protection, you have become the sort of country from which it is easy to see why so many refugees flee. The Christian thing for residents of other countries to do would be to welcome those refugees.

It is worthwhile to think about. I.e. how some political systems started badly and for that reason became the tree bearing evil fruit. Things get so unworkable that finally revolution is needed, judicial reform, social reform, rewriting of the laws.

And though what I recommended was indulgence in punishment fantasy, the concept is in a strange sense sound: to begin to correct such corruption a whole percentage of the people who are corrupt must be eliminated. Then, such drastic punishments established that no one dares to break the law. Very Machiavellian but very responsive to the facts of human nature.

Mario Vargas Llosa, a great Peruvian writer and an excellent novelist and essayist recently died. Look up some of his ideas about Latin American politics. Again, it is the stuff of magical realism. So unbelievably weird that Europeans cannot at all understand it.

Beyond any doubt many millions of Colombians would migrate to a country of laws and law and order. Toot sweet. Recently many did. And most are still there (and will not be deported). I have talked to many of them, both there and here. Many — most — are hardworking and decent. What makes the migration option difficult is the lack of community, family, and cultural links for those abandoning Colombia. But there are town (in NJ for example) that Colombians migrate to because there are thousands of their fellows already there. They recreate the culture they came from which is only natural.

Long ago certain figures in California pointed out that excessive Mesoamerican immigration would change the nature of the people of California and that the result would not turn out to be good. “Demographics is destiny,” some say.

The “problem” of excessive immigration (into any country) is quite real if it can be considered rationally. My own view? All immigration should be halted for at least 10 years, maybe 20, until those foreigners now here are integrated fully.

It is quite impossible to round up even a fraction of the (6-20?) millions who entered illegally over the last 5 years. It would be a feat to deport even 100,000. So there is nothing to be done (and nothing will be done).

However, the recent publicity and the fear of the possibility of being captured and sent to prison in El Salvador has a “positive function” in curtailing illegal immigrants from even trying to enter. Also quite Machiavellian.

The Christian thing for residents of other countries to do would be to welcome those refugees.

This is a false concept. And since you have zero concept of Christian social policies (more properly Catholic social doctrines) you operate with a very mistaken idea.

It is a “sin” to allow excessive immigration for the harm it does to indigenous populations. It destroys labor value, disrupts communities, etc. A whole range of things.

The best program for poor and abused people in Latin America is to force them not to emigrate and to encourage them to reform their own nations and their own cultural defects. It is to close off the “escape valve” (emigration) that corrupt elites in Latin America rely on so they can maintain their corrupt empires.

And that’s where the helicopters come in as I am sure you understand now …

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 12:53 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 12:45 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 12:27 pm
Save your advice, Minion. Your view is not out of the blue. It's been considered as part of the totality of this issue.

With all due respect, you think immigration courts are not part of the judicial branch, so your ability to consider the totality of this issue is diminished due to stupid.

Boasberg Admits He Doesn't 'Have the Power' to Stop Trump Deportation Flights
https://redstate.com/bobhoge/2025/04/18 ... g-n2188042

Is the judge ignoring The 14th Amendment? These are people too, just like Garcia ... although he was judged by due process* to be a member of a foreign terrorist organization.

* Immigration judges, not criminal judges.

All hail Wiki!
Immigration judge (United States)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... ed_States)

*

Flash stamps foot and hollers, This should not Be!

The Supreme Court has interceded and issued a TRO
The ruling is published here

(ORDER LIST: 604 U.S.)
SATURDAY, APRIL 19, 2025
ORDER IN PENDING CASE
24A1007 A.A.R.P., ET AL. V. TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF U.S., ET AL.
There is before the Court an application on behalf of a
putative class of detainees seeking an injunction against their
removal under the Alien Enemies Act. The matter is currently
pending before the Fifth Circuit. Upon action by the Fifth
Circuit, the Solicitor General is invited to file a response to
the application before this Court as soon as possible. The
Government is directed not to remove any member of the putative
class of detainees from the United States until further order of
this Court. See 28 U. S. C. §1651(a).
Justice Thomas and Justice Alito dissent from the Court’s
order. Statement from Justice Alito to follow.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 1:46 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 11:35 am Once they have gotten so out of hand that you are willing to just scoop up and murder millions of people, again, without due process or legal protection, you have become the sort of country from which it is easy to see why so many refugees flee. The Christian thing for residents of other countries to do would be to welcome those refugees.

It is worthwhile to think about. I.e. how some political systems started badly and for that reason became the tree bearing evil fruit. Things get so unworkable that finally revolution is needed, judicial reform, social reform, rewriting of the laws.

And though what I recommended was indulgence in punishment fantasy, the concept is in a strange sense sound: to begin to correct such corruption a whole percentage of the people who are corrupt must be eliminated. Then, such drastic punishments established that no one dares to break the law. Very Machiavellian but very responsive to the facts of human nature.

Mario Vargas Llosa, a great Peruvian writer and an excellent novelist and essayist recently died. Look up some of his ideas about Latin American politics. Again, it is the stuff of magical realism. So unbelievably weird that Europeans cannot at all understand it.

I wonder if I really need to know about this man to understand that the traditional South American way of fixing these issues by murdering people hasn't worked because it's a bad idea. Latin America just keeps repeating all the bad ideas over and over again in a circle of silliness. First they adopt left wing populist policies and nationalise the oil industry or something. Then that doesn't work so they bounce all the way to right wing populism and fuck more stuff up, then they go round and round again, always relying on some populist bullshit to fix real problems.

Most of Europe fixed the same sort of problems during what historians refer to as the "long 19th Century" measured from the slaughter of the French Revolution to the slaughter on the Somme. The countries that succeeded did so by building institutions resistant to corruption, curbing the power of oligarchs, adopting policies to promote trade and investment, reducing protective tariffs that served to entrench the wealth of landowners and harm the poor. The ones that didn't do these things were less successful and only became stable and wealthy much later.

Your (plural) proposed solutions are always populist, you (plural) haven't really got the attention span to understand technocratic solutions.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 1:46 pm Beyond any doubt many millions of Colombians would migrate to a country of laws and law and order. Toot sweet. Recently many did. And most are still there (and will not be deported). I have talked to many of them, both there and here. Many — most — are hardworking and decent. What makes the migration option difficult is the lack of community, family, and cultural links for those abandoning Colombia. But there are town (in NJ for example) that Colombians migrate to because there are thousands of their fellows already there. They recreate the culture they came from which is only natural.

Conversely, if Colombia were to improve its institutions and to become a well respected nation of law and order (is it even that bad any more?) it would become the best place in Latin America to invest, and there would be an economic boom and lots of jobs and would attract migrants and then America could complain less often. The EU expansion into Eastern Europe of the 90s and 00s had that sort of effect,

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 1:46 pm Long ago certain figures in California pointed out that excessive Mesoamerican immigration would change the nature of the people of California and that the result would not turn out to be good. “Demographics is destiny,” some say.

The “problem” of excessive immigration (into any country) is quite real if it can be considered rationally. My own view? All immigration should be halted for at least 10 years, maybe 20, until those foreigners now here are integrated fully.

You and I take "demographic" issues very differently. The phrase Demography is destiny isn't about race, it's primarily about the ration of working age to retired folks and the taxes that those workers pay to cover the Social Security cheques that go to the elderly.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 1:46 pm It is quite impossible to round up even a fraction of the (6-20?) millions who entered illegally over the last 5 years. It would be a feat to deport even 100,000. So there is nothing to be done (and nothing will be done).

However, the recent publicity and the fear of the possibility of being captured and sent to prison in El Salvador has a “positive function” in curtailing illegal immigrants from even trying to enter. Also quite Machiavellian.

You would be able to at least count these people if you were to give them a reliable way to enter the proper legal economy and pay taxes.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 1:46 pm

The Christian thing for residents of other countries to do would be to welcome those refugees.

This is a false concept. And since you have zero concept of Christian social policies (more properly Catholic social doctrines) you operate with a very mistaken idea.

It is a “sin” to allow excessive immigration for the harm it does to indigenous populations. It destroys labor value, disrupts communities, etc. A whole range of things.

The best program for poor and abused people in Latin America is to force them not to emigrate and to encourage them to reform their own nations and their own cultural defects. It is to close off the “escape valve” (emigration) that corrupt elites in Latin America rely on so they can maintain their corrupt empires.

Ah yes, as Jesus famously said "Fuck you Jack, I've got mine", which gospel did that come from?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 1:46 pm And that’s where the helicopters come in as I am sure you understand now …

This sort of thinking is why you will always be a small man.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 7:53 pm I wonder if I really need to know about this man to understand that the traditional South American way of fixing these issues by murdering people hasn't worked because it's a bad idea. Latin America just keeps repeating all the bad ideas over and over again in a circle of silliness. First they adopt left wing populist policies and nationalise the oil industry or something. Then that doesn't work so they bounce all the way to right wing populism and fuck more stuff up, then they go round and round again, always relying on some populist bullshit to fix real problems.

The reason to know of Vargas Llosa is simply because he is quite an amazing man.

Most of Europe fixed the same sort of problems during what historians refer to as the "long 19th Century" measured from the slaughter of the French Revolution to the slaughter on the Somme. The countries that succeeded did so by building institutions resistant to corruption, curbing the power of oligarchs, adopting policies to promote trade and investment, reducing protective tariffs that served to entrench the wealth of landowners and harm the poor. The ones that didn't do these things were less successful and only became stable and wealthy much later.

You see? That’s what I’m talking about.

First, The Terror …

… then the Shopping Mall.

You are catching on!

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 3:41 am So this change of subject is irrelevant.

Going to answer the question?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 3:05 am

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 11:30 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 11:15 pm
I'm still waiting for that evidence that the "process" used was not what was "due." I'm not hearing it.

OK, well here's the article in the George Washington Law Review

We've already established that he wasn't an illegal alien.

Explain instead how illegal aliens are being deprived of "due process." I'd like to see the evidence of that.

First, please confirm that you do now understand that Kilmar Abrego Garcia was denied due process, which is what I was consistently and correctly writing about.

If it helps, I can provide a quote from one of the Supreme Court justices again which explicitly calls for his return from Salvadorean exile so that he can be granted the due process.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 11:30 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 3:05 am

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 11:30 pm
OK, well here's the article in the George Washington Law Review

We've already established that he wasn't an illegal alien.

Explain instead how illegal aliens are being deprived of "due process." I'd like to see the evidence of that.

First, please confirm that you do now understand that Kilmar Abrego Garcia was denied due process, which is what I was consistently and correctly writing about.

Is this the guy you're concerned about?

BBC -- In 2021 his US citizen wife, Jennifer Vasquez Sura, filed a restraining order against her husband, alleging he punched and scratched her and ripped off her shirt.

The Trump administration alleges that Mr Ábrego García is a "verified" member of the violent El Salvador gang MS-13.

On Wednesday, White House press secretary said the El Salvador national was wearing "a sweatshirt with rolls of money covering the ears, mouth and eyes of presidents", which she said is a "known MS-13 gang symbol".

She said he was arrested alongside two other members of the gang, and that "two separate judges found Ábrego García was a member of MS-13".

Here's the homeland security page, with the same data on it, plus a bit more, plus documentation: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/04/16/kil ... y-violence

So...a gang member, it seems? And not an illegal immigrant, but a possibly a vicious criminal of one of the worst gangs in the US?

And these are your friends?

Apparently, he wasn't an illegal immigrant.

In fact he was. After 2 hearings before immigration authorities he lost. He was to be deported. He made a final appeal that if deported to El Salvador he would likely be physically harmed.

That third judge granted him an atypical status: that of “not to be deported” while his case, still, was not finally decided.

He was granted permission to a) remain in the country and b) to work.

The Trump administration’s “mistake” was not to have known, or not to have cared, that he had a legal permission to be in the country.

So, technically, they violated a valid court order.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 11:57 pm The Trump administration’s “mistake” was not to have known, or not to have cared, that he had a legal permission to be in the country. So, technically, they violated a valid court order.

Hmm...so yes, he had been an illegal migrant, and yes, he was a criminal and a member of a drug and sex-slavery gang, and yes, he was being sent home to his own country, but he had also managed to obtain a work permit of some kind in the US, which he had somehow lost track of and forgot to show when arrested? And Flash wants us to be appalled that he's gone?

Are these the facts?

I also note that the White House Secretary says he "had a lawful deportation order against him," as well, but apparently the Dems are calling him "a Maryland dad."

Honestly, you can't make this stuff up. But somehow, they do.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 11:37 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 11:30 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 3:05 am
We've already established that he wasn't an illegal alien.

Explain instead how illegal aliens are being deprived of "due process." I'd like to see the evidence of that.

First, please confirm that you do now understand that Kilmar Abrego Garcia was denied due process, which is what I was consistently and correctly writing about.

Is this the guy you're concerned about?

BBC -- In 2021 his US citizen wife, Jennifer Vasquez Sura, filed a restraining order against her husband, alleging he punched and scratched her and ripped off her shirt.

The Trump administration alleges that Mr Ábrego García is a "verified" member of the violent El Salvador gang MS-13.

On Wednesday, White House press secretary said the El Salvador national was wearing "a sweatshirt with rolls of money covering the ears, mouth and eyes of presidents", which she said is a "known MS-13 gang symbol".

She said he was arrested alongside two other members of the gang, and that "two separate judges found Ábrego García was a member of MS-13".

Here's the homeland security page, with the same data on it, plus a bit more, plus documentation: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/04/16/kil ... y-violence

So...a gang member, it seems? And not an illegal immigrant, but a possibly a vicious criminal of one of the worst gangs in the US?

And these are your friends?

Everybody gets due process, criminals included. Without it your justice system cannot be trusted. It's extremely important and it is a worrying sign that you and Walker are willing to dispose of it.

So I ask again, before you try and change the topic, please confirm that you do now understand that Kilmar Abrego Garcia was denied due process, which is what I was consistently and correctly writing about.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Apr 21, 2025 12:57 am Everybody gets due process, criminals included.

Which "process"?

What "process" is "due" to an illegal migrant, terrorist-gang member who's dealing drugs and beating his wife?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 20, 2025 11:57 pm

Apparently, he wasn't an illegal immigrant.

In fact he was. After 2 hearings before immigration authorities he lost. He was to be deported. He made a final appeal that if deported to El Salvador he would likely be physically harmed.

That third judge granted him an atypical status: that of “not to be deported” while his case, still, was not finally decided.

He was granted permission to a) remain in the country and b) to work.

The Trump administration’s “mistake” was not to have known, or not to have cared, that he had a legal permission to be in the country.

So, technically, they violated a valid court order.

They did know, this was confirmed in court by a DOJ lawyer. That lawyer promptly made sure his client sacked him from the case before he had to answer any more questions about that.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Apr 21, 2025 1:01 am

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Apr 21, 2025 12:57 am Everybody gets due process, criminals included.

Which "process"?

What "process" is "due" to an illegal migrant, terrorist-gang member who's dealing drugs and beating his wife?

Do you want me to paste the fourteenth ammendment again?

Or do you need somebody to explain the word "inalienable" for you?

I have become so concerned about the absence of basic understanding shown here by Walker and Immanuel Can that I went out and found a 6 minute Youtube video that explains Due Process - a concept that is fundamentally the same in all countries under Anglo Saxon legal codes (which includes UK, Canada and USA).

That way mister Can might come to understand that due process isn't some phrase Flash DoodiPlops made up in an internet argument and is something that he really ought to already know about.

Here:
LawShelf - The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments: The Requirements of Procedural Due Process
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF2Twhzu39w


This is a low point in your lives gentlemen. You are ignorant savages.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Apr 21, 2025 12:19 am …he was a criminal and a member of a drug and sex-slavery gang, and yes, he was being sent home to his own country, but he had also managed to obtain a work permit of some kind in the US, which he had somehow lost track of and forgot to show when arrested? And Flash wants us to be appalled that he's gone?

He was alleged to have a connection to a known gang in the US. I.e. strong circumstantial evidence.

He might have eventually been deported. But he had legal status at the time he was captured.

They may have or may not have known he had a permit. (That’s where the “administrative mistake” is said to have occurred.) i incline to think the administration knew and did not care.
___________

Ah, what Flash wants is likely complex! He says he is concerned about Constitutional rights. But there are likely to be other motives, too.

Myself, I am also concerned about an administration that openly violates Constitutional protections. There are established legal means to deport criminals who are illegals.