Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:55 pm But with God, all things are possible.

Curiously, Gary posted this somewhere else. It seems to encapsulate the moral criticism that is made against Yahweh that many express to you. I thought it was quite compelling.

Gary, perhaps you should consider joining the Hare Krishnas instead?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:55 pm But with God, all things are possible.

Curiously, Gary posted this somewhere else. It seems to encapsulate the moral criticism that is made against Yahweh that many express to you. I thought it was quite compelling.

Gary, perhaps you should consider joining the Hare Krishnas instead?

If God exists and is what is the God of the Bible and the God of the Bible is God, then there's nothing to join. God wins.

But he doesn't win me.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:59 pm
What, talk to God? If I talk and something answers, how will I know if it's God or not? How would I discern the voice of God from that of a malicious demon (if such things exist)?

Excellent question, Gary.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:25 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:59 pm
What, talk to God? If I talk and something answers, how will I know if it's God or not? How would I discern the voice of God from that of a malicious demon (if such things exist)?

Excellent question, Gary.

Thank you, Harbal.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:35 pm
Quite right. Because the goal isn't to make oneself liked, at their expense; it's to save people from absolute disaster, if at all possible.

Yes, I accept that. Even so, it is irritating to constantly be told that something is so when you are sure beyond reasonable doubt it is not so. And just like I can never justifiably claim with certainty that it isn't true, neither can you justifiably claim with certainty that it is.

I often quote him, because he's an Atheist and a God-hater, and yet I think he got this absolutely right. Here's Penn Jillette:

“I’ve always said that I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe that there’s a heaven and a hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life, and you think that it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward—and atheists who think people shouldn’t proselytize and who say just leave me along and keep your religion to yourself—how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?

“I mean, if I believed, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that a truck was coming at you, and you didn’t believe that truck was bearing down on you, there is a certain point where I tackle you. And this is more important than that.”

I, too, usually like what Penn Jillette has to say about religion. I can't quite see how he can be a God hater, though, when he doesn't believe there is a God.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:59 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:55 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:48 pm

All this over something that is impossible to know in theory or communicate to anyone but yourself.

And yet, you've been told how to find out. And you prefer cynicism to an honest experiment. Can such cynicism be cured? Not by me.

But with God, all things are possible.

What, talk to God? If I talk and something answers, how will I know if it's God or not? How would I discern the voice of God from that of a malicious demon (if such things exist)?

To discern the voice of God some people ask a priest or read a Book of holy advice and instruction. Others use their reason. Others trust their own feelings. It's your responsibility to decide which of those choices is the most likely to be the voice of God.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:59 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:55 pm
And yet, you've been told how to find out. And you prefer cynicism to an honest experiment. Can such cynicism be cured? Not by me.

But with God, all things are possible.

What, talk to God? If I talk and something answers, how will I know if it's God or not? How would I discern the voice of God from that of a malicious demon (if such things exist)?

To discern the voice of God some people ask a priest or read a Book of holy advice and instruction. Others use their reason. Others trust their own feelings. It's your responsibility to decide which of those choices is the most likely to be the voice of God.

Is that the long form of: "I don't know", Belinda? Otherwise, it's not a very helpful answer to my question. However, I would hope you would get the gist of what I'm trying to point out by the question. If you've ever experienced the voice of God as IC claims to, then perhaps a few concrete hints as to how one makes that discernment would be helpful--assuming IC is not going to answer my question.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:03 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:59 pm

What, talk to God? If I talk and something answers, how will I know if it's God or not? How would I discern the voice of God from that of a malicious demon (if such things exist)?

To discern the voice of God some people ask a priest or read a Book of holy advice and instruction. Others use their reason. Others trust their own feelings. It's your responsibility to decide which of those choices is the most likely to be the voice of God.

Is that the long form of: "I don't know", Belinda? Otherwise, it's not a very helpful answer to my question. However, I would hope you would get the gist of what I'm trying to point out by the question. If you've ever experienced the voice of God as IC claims to, then perhaps a few concrete hints as to how one makes that discernment would be helpful--assuming IC is not going to answer my question.

IC's voice of God is an Authority. I have experienced that Authority in the form of the voices of preachers, and I was a docile child at that time so I believed the preachers. But I did not believe them enough to leave me permanently indoctrinated.

I don't know, but I do trust that I do better to rely on my own reason and my own feelings than to trust what preachers say.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:12 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:03 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:42 pm

To discern the voice of God some people ask a priest or read a Book of holy advice and instruction. Others use their reason. Others trust their own feelings. It's your responsibility to decide which of those choices is the most likely to be the voice of God.

Is that the long form of: "I don't know", Belinda? Otherwise, it's not a very helpful answer to my question. However, I would hope you would get the gist of what I'm trying to point out by the question. If you've ever experienced the voice of God as IC claims to, then perhaps a few concrete hints as to how one makes that discernment would be helpful--assuming IC is not going to answer my question.

IC's voice of God is an Authority. I have experienced that Authority in the form of the voices of preachers, and I was a docile child at that time so I believed the preachers. But I did not believe them enough to leave me permanently indoctrinated.

I don't know, but I do trust that I do better to rely on my own reason and my own feelings than to trust what preachers say.

My parents never took me to church that I can recall. No Bibles laying around. Very little if any mention of God or religion except when my dad was pissed off about something. Then it was usually swearing and cursing using God in the expletive. But at least he didn't use vulgar words like "fuck" "shit" or "dick". I didn't have much in the way of close friends. The best friends I had were generally all, atheists, ex-church kids, or immigrants. (But, no. I didn't smoke in the bathroom at school, do drugs or hang out with the regular detention kids.)

I feel almost no inclination to have anything to do with any God out there. The only reason I started going to a Christian help program was because this woman I fell in love with took me to one and got me started on it. Then she basically ditched me when she found out I had a porn problem. My addiction came out as an issue when I started going to the Christian program. As soon as I walked in the door, I turned into a black sheep and lost the woman I was in love with. But I confessed my sin, for what little good it did me. The only big thing that happened when I started trying out church is that I found out how much of a loser I really was to them. Fuck that. I can't change my habits or the past or any of that. Excuse me for living.

Now I am more convinced then ever Gary! You should join the Hare Krishnas!

Here is Nina Hagen singing the maha-mantra.

Ok, Ok, if you can’t go that far how about something like spiritual bohemianism?

Lyrics

Gary Childress wrote:

--------I feel almost no inclination to have anything to do with any God out there.------

There is no "God out there". God and gods are human constructs. Obviously you don't find any God or gods make you happy or are otherwise useful for you so why bother with God or gods?

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:16 am Gary Childress wrote:

--------I feel almost no inclination to have anything to do with any God out there.------

There is no "God out there". God and gods are human constructs. Obviously you don't find any God or gods make you happy or are otherwise useful for you so why bother with God or gods?

Perhaps because it gets kind of lonely being surrounded by people who seem to believe in "human constructs" that aren't "out there." I can't believe in them and no one who does believe in them seems to be willing to treat me as anything other than a messed-up person who needs to be fixed in order to eventually be presentable among them. If there is no God out there then what am I supposed to do, go join a circus or something? Maybe I could get myself a bunch of tattoos and become a carnival exhibit?

I mean, now I think I know what Nietzsche meant by "the herd". The world is just a bunch of little islands or tribes of people who are in their little clicks and if you're an outsider, then you have to go through hazing or something before you join and then I can be their towel boy or something. Fuck that. Either there's a God or there isn't. Either that God is the Christian God and we must do what Christians do or it isn't.

If there's a God, then let me know. If there isn't then all these little kingdoms of theism need to come to reality or humanity will spend the rest of its days divided and unable to accomplish anything more than what it has already. Further progress is not going to happen for humanity if people can't work together. The only thing we'll accomplish then is getting into wars. And where technology is at right now and where it's going, wars will be the end of everything for us.

Or if we don't know for sure, then we can all become agnostics and be honest with ourselves and unite in that way.

'Taunting' people for their beliefs is 'cowardly': Jesus joke on The Project

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2f-7it9O5k

"if there's a God, then let me know."

we cannot do this sir, for two reasons. we cannot produce any rational proof and revelatory knowledge (if it existed) would be dubious. so, I can't argue that god exists and i can't be sure any experiences i may have had were divine (contact with god, angels, whatever) and without a natural explanation.