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Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:47 pm
by Gary Childress
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:34 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:25 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:09 pm
Would yo be so kind as to explain what you mean by *pay off*? You are alluding to something you expect to receive. What is that? This is important, Gary. You are forthcoming in your confessional posts. Please be forthcoming and tell me what *pay off* means.
Sure. Will it provide me with wisdom? Will it cure mental illness? Will it make me less bitter and jaded? How many, if not all three benefits, will be realized from it?
From what I have been able to discern -- I offer a non-professional opinion that I yet think is sound -- there is no *cure* for the illness you suffer. And as you know, what has helped you with your condition is the medicines that you take. I have a little bit of experience in this area as I have a half-sister who is largely in the same situation. When she tried to go off her meds she fell back into schizophrenia. She had been reading some people who proposed it possible not to take them (Eckhart Tolle I think) and to somehow conquer the illness. It did not work.
I am not sure if the people on this thread reporting on their psychedelic use had severe schizophrenia, so I would be chary indeed to recommend that you use any drugs of that sort. But then who can offer you any advice at all? You seem to seek it though. The forum has become an extension of your therapeutic community. I am not sure that is a wise choice on your part.
To become less bitter and jaded is, in my view at least, a personal choice. Or it would be a personal choice in a 'normal' person who is not suffering from severe schizophrenia. Everyone has suffered from negative thinking, and many have realized that they had better change the way they are thinking, and many have done so. But is that an option for you? How will you go about finding out?
Wisdom is an interesting question. To use that term implies that you have an inkling of what *wisdom* is. Otherwise, what does *wisdom* mean to you?
But the issue you seem to face is the one having to do with 'taking the Christian cure' (which is what it was referred to in ancient times). I recommend that you take the Christian cure, get involved in a Christian healing community, and work to change your entire attitude. You are so obviously addicted to your misery -- but perhaps you cannot be blamed at all for this? A friend of mine, who knows my half-sister, reminded me 'schizophrenia is a terrible illness'. She reminded me of that because I expressed some frustration or impatience that my half-sister was having these outbursts. As they say "It's the disease". What power does a mentally ill person have over their illness? In the 12-Step programs they say 'Let go and let god'. (But that makes no sense at all to the typical atheist of this forum.)
As I have said so many times I do not see the form of a religion, or the god-concept they work with, as being the primary thing. Those are 'handles' and behind the handle stands something incomprehensible. The 'story' is not the thing referred to, but what stands behind 'story' is very hard to talk about.
But since you are
seeking advice (I mean aren't you?!?), and if you asked
me, I would say that a sincere practice of Christianity would be a very good choice. If you then were to ask: "So, you
believe in it then?" The only way I have to answer such a question is to say that inside of us is something that we seek. There are dozens of modalities.
How can I
sincerely practice Christianity if I'm not sure whether or not it is Truth.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:56 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
You are really going to push forward with asking these sorts of questions, eh?
The answer is that you take the first steps. You will find the people who will help you take successive steps. You cannot know anything about a path that you may choose to take beforehand. That's control kicking in.
You have it in your power to take steps. So don't hesitate.
Again, you are posing odd questions to me. But I am unreliable because I am not you.
Truth with a capital 'the' is largely a *category of the mind*. You are referring to an abstraction. But an abstraction can do nothing for you, or me, or anyone.
Taking concrete steps, and gaining associations and helping hands, getting away from the computer (!) that is not dealing in mental abstractions.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:02 pm
by Gary Childress
Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:32 pm
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:26 pm
I question why I would need to be in service to anything or
be saved by anything.
Apparently, to be born into a godless world where our existence is entirely subject to the laws of nature, and where we must make what we can of life before we eventually just die and cease to exist, would be pointless. Nevertheless, I believe that is exactly our situation, and I agree that it is pointless. On the other hand, it is supposed that to be created by God and placed here to worship him and live in accordance with his wishes, and be generally tested by him until it is time for his judgement to determine whether we then go on to either an eternity of bliss, or one of suffering, depending on how pleased God is with our performance, would have a point to it. In short, we were created for the sole purpose of being judged worthy of either reward or punishment, and we are meant to see a point to that. Who would have dreamed it possible to come up with a story so absurd and actually sell it to the masses?
Yes. It's difficult to figure out which is worse. Heaven/hell seems to put a whole new level on existence. But they seem to exist both for the atheist and for the theist. For the atheist, heaven and hell can only exist here and now. For the theist, they exist after death, which is perhaps either nothing more than a way of teaching patience in the here and now or else something we have to have the most supreme of faiths in (that we will ever experience them at all). No wonder there is insanity in this world. For God in all his wisdom created a broken world. Or maybe, if there is a God, then we all deserve what we get in life. Who knows.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:32 pm
by BigMike
Oh boy, let me tell you, it's a tough pill to swallow when you realize that so many people out there are chugging down the God Kool-Aid. I mean, it's not just a difference of opinion, it's like we're speaking two completely different languages, you know what I mean? To me, the whole idea of a deity is like trying to understand advanced calculus after three shots of tequila - unfathomable and just plain confusing.
But I gotta say, watching people turn to religion to find comfort and meaning in life is like watching someone try to dance in clogs - it's painful and awkward, and you just want to look away. It's like they're all walking around with a security blanket, thinking it's protecting them from the harsh realities of existence, but really it's just a flimsy Band-Aid on a gaping wound.
And don't even get me started on the impact that this belief has had on society. I mean, religion has caused more drama and chaos than an episode of The Real Housewives. People are out here killing, oppressing, and discriminating against others all in the name of some higher power. It's enough to make me want to facepalm until my hand goes numb.
And the cherry on top of this whole dumpster fire is the fact that trying to reason with believers is like trying to teach a cat to play fetch. It's a futile effort that just leaves you feeling drained and defeated.
But hey, at least we can all bond over the fact that it's hard to reconcile the idea of a loving God with the world we live in. I mean, it's like watching a rom-com where the main character falls in love with a cactus - it just doesn't make sense. And until we all figure out our place in the universe, we're just gonna keep fighting and suffering like a bunch of toddlers in a ball pit. And that, my friends, is the ultimate tragedy.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:35 pm
by Immanuel Can
commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:33 pm
You contradict what you’ve posted earlier about God’s spoken word.
I don't think I do.
But if you think I do, I'm prepared to hear about it. Go ahead.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:57 pm
by Belinda
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:47 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:34 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:25 pm
Sure. Will it provide me with wisdom? Will it cure mental illness? Will it make me less bitter and jaded? How many, if not all three benefits, will be realized from it?
From what I have been able to discern -- I offer a non-professional opinion that I yet think is sound -- there is no *cure* for the illness you suffer. And as you know, what has helped you with your condition is the medicines that you take. I have a little bit of experience in this area as I have a half-sister who is largely in the same situation. When she tried to go off her meds she fell back into schizophrenia. She had been reading some people who proposed it possible not to take them (Eckhart Tolle I think) and to somehow conquer the illness. It did not work.
I am not sure if the people on this thread reporting on their psychedelic use had severe schizophrenia, so I would be chary indeed to recommend that you use any drugs of that sort. But then who can offer you any advice at all? You seem to seek it though. The forum has become an extension of your therapeutic community. I am not sure that is a wise choice on your part.
To become less bitter and jaded is, in my view at least, a personal choice. Or it would be a personal choice in a 'normal' person who is not suffering from severe schizophrenia. Everyone has suffered from negative thinking, and many have realized that they had better change the way they are thinking, and many have done so. But is that an option for you? How will you go about finding out?
Wisdom is an interesting question. To use that term implies that you have an inkling of what *wisdom* is. Otherwise, what does *wisdom* mean to you?
But the issue you seem to face is the one having to do with 'taking the Christian cure' (which is what it was referred to in ancient times). I recommend that you take the Christian cure, get involved in a Christian healing community, and work to change your entire attitude. You are so obviously addicted to your misery -- but perhaps you cannot be blamed at all for this? A friend of mine, who knows my half-sister, reminded me 'schizophrenia is a terrible illness'. She reminded me of that because I expressed some frustration or impatience that my half-sister was having these outbursts. As they say "It's the disease". What power does a mentally ill person have over their illness? In the 12-Step programs they say 'Let go and let god'. (But that makes no sense at all to the typical atheist of this forum.)
As I have said so many times I do not see the form of a religion, or the god-concept they work with, as being the primary thing. Those are 'handles' and behind the handle stands something incomprehensible. The 'story' is not the thing referred to, but what stands behind 'story' is very hard to talk about.
But since you are
seeking advice (I mean aren't you?!?), and if you asked
me, I would say that a sincere practice of Christianity would be a very good choice. If you then were to ask: "So, you
believe in it then?" The only way I have to answer such a question is to say that inside of us is something that we seek. There are dozens of modalities.
How can I
sincerely practice Christianity if I'm not sure whether or not it is Truth.
Nothing we know is Truth. Xianity is not Truth. Truth, along with Goodness and Beauty, transcends definitions.
The best any of us can do is perceive ephemeral and incomplete examples of Good, Beauty, and Truth. It's possible to find such examples in a Xian community.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:15 pm
by Harry Baird
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:51 pm
Harry Baird wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:49 pm
Both of the alternatives offered can be true at the same time.
Addressed already in
this post.
Asked and answered.
Nope. Instead of addressing the actual two horns of the dilemma in terms of what explains what,
you switched to an analogy, and discussed that. I pointed out
that and how your analogy fails. You ignored me.
So, here's your chance to respond directly to the two horns of the dilemma on their own terms, and to my explanation as to why both alternative explanations can't be true at the same time, and that even if we allow that they can be, they don't ground morality in God anyhow.
The post where I laid all of that out is, again,
this one.
Have at it.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:19 pm
by Immanuel Can
Yup.
That you don't know it, or that you do, and refuse to admit it, doesn't concern me much. It seems you're resting a great deal on Euthyphro being the way you say it is. But you can read the original, and find out you're wrong.
I'll leave you to it. I have better things to do than repeat the obvious to you.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:23 pm
by Harry Baird
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:19 pm
I'll leave you to it.
I guess you don't have much choice but to do that, given that you're clearly unable to respond to the Dilemma itself, on its own terms.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:37 pm
by Gary Childress
Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:57 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:47 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:34 pm
From what I have been able to discern -- I offer a non-professional opinion that I yet think is sound -- there is no *cure* for the illness you suffer. And as you know, what has helped you with your condition is the medicines that you take. I have a little bit of experience in this area as I have a half-sister who is largely in the same situation. When she tried to go off her meds she fell back into schizophrenia. She had been reading some people who proposed it possible not to take them (Eckhart Tolle I think) and to somehow conquer the illness. It did not work.
I am not sure if the people on this thread reporting on their psychedelic use had severe schizophrenia, so I would be chary indeed to recommend that you use any drugs of that sort. But then who can offer you any advice at all? You seem to seek it though. The forum has become an extension of your therapeutic community. I am not sure that is a wise choice on your part.
To become less bitter and jaded is, in my view at least, a personal choice. Or it would be a personal choice in a 'normal' person who is not suffering from severe schizophrenia. Everyone has suffered from negative thinking, and many have realized that they had better change the way they are thinking, and many have done so. But is that an option for you? How will you go about finding out?
Wisdom is an interesting question. To use that term implies that you have an inkling of what *wisdom* is. Otherwise, what does *wisdom* mean to you?
But the issue you seem to face is the one having to do with 'taking the Christian cure' (which is what it was referred to in ancient times). I recommend that you take the Christian cure, get involved in a Christian healing community, and work to change your entire attitude. You are so obviously addicted to your misery -- but perhaps you cannot be blamed at all for this? A friend of mine, who knows my half-sister, reminded me 'schizophrenia is a terrible illness'. She reminded me of that because I expressed some frustration or impatience that my half-sister was having these outbursts. As they say "It's the disease". What power does a mentally ill person have over their illness? In the 12-Step programs they say 'Let go and let god'. (But that makes no sense at all to the typical atheist of this forum.)
As I have said so many times I do not see the form of a religion, or the god-concept they work with, as being the primary thing. Those are 'handles' and behind the handle stands something incomprehensible. The 'story' is not the thing referred to, but what stands behind 'story' is very hard to talk about.
But since you are
seeking advice (I mean aren't you?!?), and if you asked
me, I would say that a sincere practice of Christianity would be a very good choice. If you then were to ask: "So, you
believe in it then?" The only way I have to answer such a question is to say that inside of us is something that we seek. There are dozens of modalities.
How can I
sincerely practice Christianity if I'm not sure whether or not it is Truth.
Nothing we know is Truth. Xianity is not Truth. Truth, along with Goodness and Beauty, transcends definitions.
The best any of us can do is perceive ephemeral and incomplete examples of Good, Beauty, and Truth. It's possible to find such examples in a Xian community.
OK. If nothing "we" know of is Truth, is that "Truth"? You seem to be making a claim and negating it at the same time as far as my pea brain can tell.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:51 pm
by BigMike
Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:57 pmNothing we know is Truth. Xianity is not Truth. Truth, along with Goodness and Beauty, transcends definitions.
The best any of us can do is perceive ephemeral and incomplete examples of Good, Beauty, and Truth. It's possible to find such examples in a Xian community.
From my viewpoint, the statement "Nothing we know is Truth" is a sweeping generalization that is difficult to support. While it is true that our understanding of truth may be limited or imperfect, it doesn't necessarily mean that nothing we know is true. There are many scientific facts and principles that have been established through rigorous observation, experimentation, and peer review. These facts and principles may not be absolute, but they are certainly true within the framework of our current understanding.
Similarly, the assertion that "Christianity is not Truth" is also subjective and dependent on one's perspective. While many may not believe in the teachings of Christianity, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are not true for those who do. The concept of truth is inherently subjective, and what one person considers to be true may not be the same for another person.
Furthermore, the statement that "Truth, along with Goodness and Beauty, transcends definitions" is also problematic from my viewpoint. While it is true that these concepts may be difficult to define or quantify, it doesn't mean that they are completely beyond definition or understanding. There are many philosophical and ethical frameworks that attempt to define and understand these concepts.
Lastly, while it may be possible to find examples of goodness, beauty, and truth within a Christian community, it doesn't necessarily mean that these qualities are exclusive to Christianity. There are many other communities and belief systems that also espouse these values. Ultimately, the existence and manifestation of these qualities are subjective and dependent on one's perspective and worldview.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:07 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:37 pm
OK. If nothing "we" know of is Truth, is that "Truth"? You seem to be making a claim and negating it at the same time as far as my pea brain can tell.
You’ve rephrased what I said. I said that Truth with a capital T is an abstraction.
You are a man in a difficult and, I gather, agonizing position. That is what you write about (mostly).
An abstraction cannot help you nor any of us. What real relevance is ‘ultimate truth’ to you or I when what we desire is fulfillment, relief, connection, community and some level of service?
In a very decent (Christian, Quaker) book I read that ‘happiness’ is not an object but rather a by-product of our lived life — if we succeed in
living it.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:08 am
by Immanuel Can
Harry Baird wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:19 pm
I'll leave you to it.
I guess you don't have much choice but to do that, given that you're clearly unable to respond to the Dilemma itself, on its own terms.
There's no dilemma. One day, you're going to find that out, one way or another.
But hey, it's not my job to force you to find out. I just have to tell you how it is.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:55 am
by Lacewing
You don't know that. There may be nothing to 'find out', nor any reason (beyond Earth) that matters. Creative manifestation might continue in our Universe as it has for billions of years.
No, you don't. You don't even know how 'it is' for anyone else.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:47 am
by Lacewing
BigMike wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:32 pm
don't even get me started on the impact that this belief has had on society. .../... People are out here killing, oppressing, and discriminating against others all in the name of some higher power.
Although I am not opposed to people believing whatever they need to for comfort and inspiration as long as they're not imposing it on, nor condemning, others...
Here is the part that I find most disturbing: the way specific kinds of theism have infiltrated so much of our world. For those who don't share the beliefs: it is nonsense that is being taught to children, making people extremists, concealing predators, being misused by politics, and controlling huge areas of human culture. It is outrageous that humankind is supposedly being governed and directed and judged by any invisible imagined entity through the mouths of men. The corruption and hypocrisy are shocking. Abuse and greed and ego are self-righteously excused. Mega money-making churches are exempt from paying taxes. And believers are led like huge flocks of sheep in what to believe and how to vote. Who/what are they actually serving? The deceptions and distortions should be a huge cause for concern and correction.
Claiming belief in a god should not justify, promote, or exempt anyone over anyone else.