Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel, brother-at-arms, would you please tell Gary that I am giving him the straight skinny?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:40 pm There is so much that you do not understand Gary!

No shit! Now, I'll take the position of Abraham. Should I invest in your "ten week email" course and say not that of Noam Chomsky or any other number of far more reputable intellectuals? How do I know the investment will pay off? How do I know you're not selling "snake oil" or "sophistry"? And if I ask you that question, are you competent enough to give me a true answer?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:04 pmHow do I know the investment will pay off?

Would yo be so kind as to explain what you mean by *pay off*? You are alluding to something you expect to receive. What is that? This is important, Gary. You are forthcoming in your confessional posts. Please be forthcoming and tell me what *pay off* means.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:04 pmHow do I know the investment will pay off?

Would yo be so kind as to explain what you mean by *pay off*? You are alluding to something you expect to receive. What is that? This is important, Gary. You are forthcoming in your confessional posts. Please be forthcoming and tell me what *pay off* means.

Sure. Will it provide me with wisdom? Will it cure mental illness? Will it make me less bitter and jaded? How many, if not all three benefits, will be realized from it?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:06 pm Apparently, we're in a goldfish bowl and lucky to get what God puts in the bowl for us. If we turn up our noses at the fish flakes we get something worse.

Good post, Gary. Yes, if God is telling people to do all kinds of terrible things to others, what is that god really?

Further, would 'evil' exist without God, or is the idea of 'evil' an integral part -- and even a product of -- the belief system?

Supposedly we need a god to save us from evil, yet more evil is done in the name of gods, and nothing has saved us from that.

I question why I would need to be in service to anything or be saved by anything. The creations and interpretations of mankind are suspicious. There are more consistent results of love and light and potential from simply tuning into my own innate and naturally 'divine' connection/inspiration which has been a part of me since I was born, and I imagine the same would naturally be true for all beings. The noisy world may distract or derail us at times, but it makes no sense to me that we would somehow be completely ripped apart from what we were born with and are part of. The thing we most need to be saved from are the ideas that we need to be saved... because that creates the existential problem in the first place.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:26 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:06 pm Apparently, we're in a goldfish bowl and lucky to get what God puts in the bowl for us. If we turn up our noses at the fish flakes we get something worse.

Good post, Gary.

Thank you, Lace. I seem to have my moments, if little else.

Yay me!

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:06 pm I guess the question comes down to if something seems wrong to us, and a voice tells us to do it, how should we determine if that voice is God's or not? I mean, according to some, one doesn't disobey a command from God. If one puts anything ahead of God, then one goes to hell. According to the Bible, God has asked people to do things that really seem to challenge the human notion of what right and wrong are. So it raises the question, what is the source of our notions of right and wrong and why do they appear to us to sometimes conflict with things the God of the Bible seems to engage in or else ask us to do?

It really comes down to the old question, "Who's in charge here?"

Is it us, who then get to impose our ideas on God, or does God get to inform us of what is really deeply moral?

Most of us seem to want to be in charge of the world. At the same time, we're painfully aware of how stupid and limited we really are, and that we are actually in charge of nothing at all (save what God allows us, of course.) Still, that realization is just too galling for most people to accept, no matter how much empirically evident it is. We all want to be God, and tell Him what He can and cannot do.

That's just not a very good idea.

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:49 pm Both of the alternatives offered can be true at the same time.

Addressed already in this post.

Asked and answered.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:50 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:06 pm I guess the question comes down to if something seems wrong to us, and a voice tells us to do it, how should we determine if that voice is God's or not? I mean, according to some, one doesn't disobey a command from God. If one puts anything ahead of God, then one goes to hell. According to the Bible, God has asked people to do things that really seem to challenge the human notion of what right and wrong are. So it raises the question, what is the source of our notions of right and wrong and why do they appear to us to sometimes conflict with things the God of the Bible seems to engage in or else ask us to do?

It really comes down to the old question, "Who's in charge here?"

Is it us, who then get to impose our ideas on God, or does God get to inform us of what is really deeply moral?

Most of us seem to want to be in charge of the world. At the same time, we're painfully aware of how stupid and limited we really are, and that we are actually in charge of nothing at all (save what God allows us, of course.) Still, that realization is just too galling for most people to accept, no matter how much empirically evident it is. We all want to be God, and tell Him what He can and cannot do.

That's just not a very good idea.

Go and re-read what I posted and respond to that instead, please.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:54 pm

According to the Bible, God has asked people to do things that really seem to challenge the human notion of what right and wrong are. So it raises the question, what is the source of our notions of right and wrong and why do they appear to us to sometimes conflict with things the God of the Bible seems to engage in or else ask us to do?

It really comes down to the old question, "Who's in charge here?"

Is it us, who then get to impose our ideas on God, or does God get to inform us of what is really deeply moral?

Go and re-read what I posted and respond to that instead, please.

I did, Gary...In fact, I've clipped your message above down to the pith, just to show it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:17 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:54 pm

It really comes down to the old question, "Who's in charge here?"

Is it us, who then get to impose our ideas on God, or does God get to inform us of what is really deeply moral?

Go and re-read what I posted and respond to that instead, please.

I did, Gary...In fact, I've clipped your message above down to the pith, just to show it.

OK. So let's say God is in charge. Do you believe the Bible is the word and deeds of God?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:22 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:17 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:54 pm Go and re-read what I posted and respond to that instead, please.

I did, Gary...In fact, I've clipped your message above down to the pith, just to show it.

OK. So let's say God is in charge. Do you believe the Bible is the word and deeds of God?

An odd way to word it. I believe the Bible is the Word of God, His written revelation. I don't believe that it details everything He ever does or did, or that it details all of human history either.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:26 pm I question why I would need to be in service to anything or be saved by anything.

Apparently, to be born into a godless world where our existence is entirely subject to the laws of nature, and where we must make what we can of life before we eventually just die and cease to exist, would be pointless. Nevertheless, I believe that is exactly our situation, and I agree that it is pointless. On the other hand, it is supposed that to be created by God and placed here to worship him and live in accordance with his wishes, and be generally tested by him until it is time for his judgement to determine whether we then go on to either an eternity of bliss, or one of suffering, depending on how pleased God is with our performance, would have a point to it. In short, we were created for the sole purpose of being judged worthy of either reward or punishment, and we are meant to see a point to that. Who would have dreamed it possible to come up with a story so absurd and actually sell it to the masses?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:44 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:30 am I speak with the intention to hear God speak to me. Obviously, I am not loved by God.

Well, that actually doesn't follow at all. There's no reason to suppose that if you try your own way God is going to speak to you, or that if He does not respond to the way we prefer to approach, that He doesn't love us.

He is, after all, God. If that means anything at all, it means we don't get to dictate terms to Him, or to tell Him on what grounds He's obligated to respond to us. Rather, it seems rather obvious, does it not, that we are obligated to come on His terms, not He on ours?

So perhaps we ought to ask, instead, "On what terms does God undertake to speak to us?" And fortunately, we have good guidance for that. And for a starter, we know that He responds to sincere seekers, who approach Him in faith, persistently and honestly, through prayer.

On the other hand, if we expected Him to respond to cynical accusation, to hostility, to envious and greedy demanding, to defiance and so on, then we are instructed, Biblically, that such a person will receive nothing at all. And I'm not saying that you approached God any of these ways...but did you really approach Him at all? Or did you simply expect Him to intervene in the middle of your possibly hasty and indifferent life, and somehow impress upon you, against your inclination, that you owed Him a relationship? If so, perhaps you never approached Him at all.

But it may not be that we like the terms He gives to us...yet what made us so powerful and wise that we think God Himself ought to owe us an answer in the way, and under the conditions, that we ourselves insist He should? Does not humility and good sense rather tell us we ought to make at least some inquiry as to the terms upon which God promises to speak?

You contradict what you’ve posted earlier about God’s spoken word.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:25 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:04 pmHow do I know the investment will pay off?

Would yo be so kind as to explain what you mean by *pay off*? You are alluding to something you expect to receive. What is that? This is important, Gary. You are forthcoming in your confessional posts. Please be forthcoming and tell me what *pay off* means.

Sure. Will it provide me with wisdom? Will it cure mental illness? Will it make me less bitter and jaded? How many, if not all three benefits, will be realized from it?

From what I have been able to discern -- I offer a non-professional opinion that I yet think is sound -- there is no *cure* for the illness you suffer. And as you know, what has helped you with your condition is the medicines that you take. I have a little bit of experience in this area as I have a half-sister who is largely in the same situation. When she tried to go off her meds she fell back into schizophrenia. She had been reading some people who proposed it possible not to take them (Eckhart Tolle I think) and to somehow conquer the illness. It did not work.

I am not sure if the people on this thread reporting on their psychedelic use had severe schizophrenia, so I would be chary indeed to recommend that you use any drugs of that sort. But then who can offer you any advice at all? You seem to seek it though. The forum has become an extension of your therapeutic community. I am not sure that is a wise choice on your part.

To become less bitter and jaded is, in my view at least, a personal choice. Or it would be a personal choice in a 'normal' person who is not suffering from severe schizophrenia. Everyone has suffered from negative thinking, and many have realized that they had better change the way they are thinking, and many have done so. But is that an option for you? How will you go about finding out?

Wisdom is an interesting question. To use that term implies that you have an inkling of what *wisdom* is. Otherwise, what does *wisdom* mean to you?

But the issue you seem to face is the one having to do with 'taking the Christian cure' (which is what it was referred to in ancient times). I recommend that you take the Christian cure, get involved in a Christian healing community, and work to change your entire attitude. You are so obviously addicted to your misery -- but perhaps you cannot be blamed at all for this? A friend of mine, who knows my half-sister, reminded me 'schizophrenia is a terrible illness'. She reminded me of that because I expressed some frustration or impatience that my half-sister was having these outbursts. As they say "It's the disease". What power does a mentally ill person have over their illness? In the 12-Step programs they say 'Let go and let god'. (But that makes no sense at all to the typical atheist of this forum.)

As I have said so many times I do not see the form of a religion, or the god-concept they work with, as being the primary thing. Those are 'handles' and behind the handle stands something incomprehensible. The 'story' is not the thing referred to, but what stands behind 'story' is very hard to talk about.

But since you are seeking advice (I mean aren't you?!?), and if you asked me, I would say that a sincere practice of Christianity would be a very good choice. If you then were to ask: "So, you believe in it then?" The only way I have to answer such a question is to say that inside of us is something that we seek. There are dozens of modalities.