Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:15 am**

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:14 am
Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:53 am
Agent Smith wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:08 am

I stand corrected. So they were wrong, my sources. Interesting, no? It's a rather difficult project to undertake if we are to make factual connections between Jesus and other minds.
It's nice to know there are some still alive who agree to be corrected!

As for Jesus of whom we know virtually nothing, it took others who never knew him to make up his mind for him. Who knows if a whole new and different personality wasn't created in the gospel exposés which followed much later barely resembling its originator.

That's there, true! Magnum Veritas is all that I can muster in me broken Latin. Allahu Akbar!

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:46 am**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:56 pm
Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:49 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:00 pm I'm all too familiar with those who want to tell the mentally ill to just snap out of it.
So, what's your advice for a mentally ill person?

You ask people here what to do... and you express how hopeless you feel... then you get pissed off at people giving you their honest feedback in the best way they can. You show no gratitude or acknowledgement. Seems like you're just here to vent and get mad at people.

If you don't like the suggestions you're being given, what would be the advice YOU would give to someone else who is expressing all that you're expressing?
Sometimes we don't want advice. Sometimes we just want to find someone else to talk to who will understand. If you don't understand, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. Sharing one's woes can itself be therapeutic. At least it makes one feel less like a freak of nature.

"Freak of nature" means nothing except to insult. You need to have a mental clear out of all the baggage you neither need not want. There . That is my advice whether you want it or not.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:48 am**

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:14 am
Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:53 am
Agent Smith wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:08 am

I stand corrected. So they were wrong, my sources. Interesting, no? It's a rather difficult project to undertake if we are to make factual connections between Jesus and other minds.
It's nice to know there are some still alive who agree to be corrected!

As for Jesus of whom we know virtually nothing, it took others who never knew him to make up his mind for him. Who knows if a whole new and different personality wasn't created in the gospel exposés which followed much later barely resembling its originator.
That's there, true! Magnum Veritas is all that I can muster with me broken Latin. Allahu Akbar!

I'm not fussy! One's as good as another!

ALL gods are predicated on an exceptionally low probability of fuzzy logic.

I hope that clears things up!

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:27 pm**

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:08 am It can't be both the case that the former (the morality of the acts/laws/principles/etc which are decreed/commanded/embodied/etc by God as moral) explains the latter (God's decreeing/commanding/embodying them as moral) as well as the case that the latter explains the former, because they're opposite explanations, so common sense dictates that it can't be the case that both are true.

That's like saying, "It can't be the case that a husband can be a father, because the fact that he's a husband makes it possible for him to be a father, and the fact that he's a father makes it possible for him to be a husband."

What you've missed is the third factor: the nature of the individual of whom you are speaking...that he's a married, procreative male. That makes him both husband and father, and neither is the explanation of the other. It's the third factor that's the explanation.

The nature of God is the location of what we human beings understand, in our naive way, as "moral." We don't always know that it is, and so we often get our own understanding of morality wrong (which accounts for the variations we see); but that's what it actually is, when we understand morality correctly, or when we locate morality objectively. "The moral" and "God's character" are synonyms for precisely the same property.

And if that's how it is, there's no dichotomy. "Good" and "what God is" are the same thing.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:39 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:45 am I guess what interests me and what you as a very knowledgeable Christian may be able to answer is:

Why did God tell Abraham to sacrifice his son...

The Bible says that God explained to Abraham this way, “Do not reach out your hand against the boy, and do not do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” (Gen. 22:12)

It was common in the ancient mid-east for people to sacrifice their offspring to "the gods." In this incident, God reveals the difference between His intentions and theirs. The ancients sought to placate and manipulate their gods through human sacrifice; in this incident, God shows that He is not the kind of God whom humans can manipulate, whether through human sacrifice or anything else, and that human beings are the ones who will have to learn to submit to the divine will, not to attempt to manipulate the divine will to serve their values. Furthermore, God shows that His intention is substitutionary atonement, not human sacrifice. And, as Abraham (who is called "a prophet") said, "God will provide for Himself a lamb." (Gen. 22:8) Hence, it's a promise of the coming Messiah and of salvation.

What this is, is a deliverance for ancient people from the wrong-headed belief that murdering their children is the way to placate the divine. And it's a promise that the whole work of making things right between God and man will be achieved by God, not by man. All that will be important is that mankind must take the attitude of Abraham, the attitude of faith; and God will do the rest.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:57 pm**

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:06 am If I haven’t heard God speak to me, how can I know that God has spoken?

The answer turns out to be quite simple: one has to be willing to look. The starting point is getting to know Jesus Christ, who is God's most perfect "Word" to mankind. God has promised that those who truly seek will find. He has given His Spirit for the purpose of revealing to human beings what they cannot know on their own. This is the Christian perspective.

However, the sad fact is that most people are not willing, not ready even to do so much as try. They want to "win" the right not to search, rather than to be convinced. They prefer their lazy cynicism to the effort of having to ask God to reveal the truth to them. They don't want his claims on their life, and they don't want to be wrong about who they are and what they're doing. They don't want to trust; they want only to disprove.

And I guess there's no cure for that attitude: God Himself promises there will be none.

So one searches, or one does not. One is ready to let God speak, or is determined never to take anything revealed to them as evidence...which, of course, means that for them, there's no such thing as evidence.

So it's a choice. And there's nothing more important than the sincere willingness to find the answer.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:15 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:57 pm However, the sad fact is that most people are not willing, not ready even to do so much as try. They want to "win" the right not to search, rather than to be convinced. They prefer their lazy cynicism to the effort of having to ask God to reveal the truth to them. They don't want his claims on their life, and they don't want to be wrong about who they are and what they're doing. They don't want to trust; they want only to disprove.

How do you know it's "laziness" that keeps us from asking God to reveal the truth? As far as him/her or whatever having a "claim" on my life, what does that mean? What does it mean that God has a claim on my life?

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:23 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:39 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:45 am I guess what interests me and what you as a very knowledgeable Christian may be able to answer is:

Why did God tell Abraham to sacrifice his son...
The Bible says that God explained to Abraham this way, “Do not reach out your hand against the boy, and do not do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” (Gen. 22:12)

It was common in the ancient mid-east for people to sacrifice their offspring to "the gods." In this incident, God reveals the difference between His intentions and theirs. The ancients sought to placate and manipulate their gods through human sacrifice; in this incident, God shows that He is not the kind of God whom humans can manipulate, whether through human sacrifice or anything else, and that human beings are the ones who will have to learn to submit to the divine will, not to attempt to manipulate the divine will to serve their values. Furthermore, God shows that His intention is substitutionary atonement, not human sacrifice. And, as Abraham (who is called "a prophet") said, "God will provide for Himself a lamb." (Gen. 22:8) Hence, it's a promise of the coming Messiah and of salvation.

What this is, is a deliverance for ancient people from the wrong-headed belief that murdering their children is the way to placate the divine. And it's a promise that the whole work of making things right between God and man will be achieved by God, not by man. All that will be important is that mankind must take the attitude of Abraham, the attitude of faith; and God will do the rest.

Oh boy, where do I even begin with this one? I mean, I know that in the old days, sacrificing your kids to the gods was just the norm, but come on! It's like God had to go out of his way to be like, "Hey Abraham, buddy, just a heads up, I'm not into that whole killing-your-son thing. Just thought I'd clear that up for ya." Like, duh, God, we kinda figured that one out on our own, thanks.

And then God goes on to be like, "Yeah, I'm not really into that whole human sacrifice thing. I'm more of a substitutionary atonement kind of God." Like, way to flex your vocab, Big Guy. But seriously, couldn't you have just said, "Hey, I'm not cool with people killing other people in my name"? It would have been a lot simpler and a lot less confusing for all of us.

But the best part is when Abraham says, "God will provide for Himself a lamb." Like, what does that even mean? Is God gonna go to the store and buy a lamb or something? And why does He need a lamb in the first place? Couldn't He just forgive us for our sins without all the theatrics?

Overall, I guess what we can take away from this is that God is not a fan of child sacrifice, which is good to know, I guess. And also, that we should just have faith in Him and He'll take care of the rest. But honestly, I think I speak for all of us when I say, "God, please just be straightforward with us next time. We're not all prophets like Abraham over here."

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:31 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:15 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:57 pm However, the sad fact is that most people are not willing, not ready even to do so much as try. They want to "win" the right not to search, rather than to be convinced. They prefer their lazy cynicism to the effort of having to ask God to reveal the truth to them. They don't want his claims on their life, and they don't want to be wrong about who they are and what they're doing. They don't want to trust; they want only to disprove.
How do you know it's "laziness" that keeps us from asking God to reveal the truth?

That's the kindest take on it, actually. It could be wickedness, or outright hostility, or the worst of all...refusal to believe. Laziness, wickedness, and even hostility are quite forgiveable...refusal to believe cannot be forgiven, because it refuses the very grounds of forgiveness.

As far as him/her or whatever having a "claim" on my life, what does that mean? What does it mean that God has a claim on my life?

It means, Gary, what we all should already know, just from the facts: we are not our own. We didn't create ourselves, aren't in control of our own circumstances, and the meaning of our lives was never the pleasing of ourselves. We thought it was, but only because we are naturally selfish and arrogant. We were always hear only by the grace of God. And it's to Him we're going to answer. Moreover, if we're going to make it through this life as anything other than a personal and moral disaster, it's going to take God to get us there.

So it's about realizing the obvious: that God has been right from the start. We've always been short-lived, confused, contingent beings, and we are not nearly so great and important as we want to think we are, or as we seem to ourselves. We're just not very realistic. We keep telling ourselves our lives would be better if we had control of things...even though we find, every time we try to control things, that we do a terrible job of it, and inevirably we fail.

Giving up control to God's claim is simply realizing that life is better, and is more of what it ought to be, if we let God give us the terms, rather than trying to impose them ourselves. So we take His leading, rather than our own. And that starts with trying to do all the things he's told us to do, starting with believing in the One whom He sent for us, Jesus Christ. As the Word says, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:38)

That's the essence of Christianity.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:41 pm**

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:39 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:45 am I guess what interests me and what you as a very knowledgeable Christian may be able to answer is:

Why did God tell Abraham to sacrifice his son...
The Bible says that God explained to Abraham this way, “Do not reach out your hand against the boy, and do not do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” (Gen. 22:12)

It was common in the ancient mid-east for people to sacrifice their offspring to "the gods." In this incident, God reveals the difference between His intentions and theirs. The ancients sought to placate and manipulate their gods through human sacrifice; in this incident, God shows that He is not the kind of God whom humans can manipulate, whether through human sacrifice or anything else, and that human beings are the ones who will have to learn to submit to the divine will, not to attempt to manipulate the divine will to serve their values. Furthermore, God shows that His intention is substitutionary atonement, not human sacrifice. And, as Abraham (who is called "a prophet") said, "God will provide for Himself a lamb." (Gen. 22:8) Hence, it's a promise of the coming Messiah and of salvation.

What this is, is a deliverance for ancient people from the wrong-headed belief that murdering their children is the way to placate the divine. And it's a promise that the whole work of making things right between God and man will be achieved by God, not by man. All that will be important is that mankind must take the attitude of Abraham, the attitude of faith; and God will do the rest.
...we kinda figured that one out on our own, thanks.

Apparently not.

Human sacrifice was ubiquitous in the ancient world, and is still practiced widely today, in many places, even in the West. What do you think abortion is? It's putting one's children on the altar one's "god." That that "god" nowadays is often nothing more elevated than one's own selfishness doesn't make a difference...especially to the fate of children. But it also doesn't elevate us one whit above the ancients. We've always been willing to 'send off' the next generation in the interest of manipulating our own outcomes and options today.

Is God gonna go to the store and buy a lamb or something?

I can see you don't know the narrative. If you did, you'd never ask a question it so obviously answers. But why not read it for yourself?

And why does He need a lamb in the first place? Couldn't He just forgive us for our sins without all the theatrics?

Well, unless I miss my guess, it seems you don't want Him to. And you're a free agent. You have a right to live and die by your own choice. After all, all it takes is faith, belief in what God has provided and willingness to identify with that, and it would seem from your response that you're unwilling to muster even that much.

God can't have made it easier. But salvation's a gift...and a gift has to be received. A gift imposed is not a "gift" at all. So you have right of refusal.

We all make our choices. Those who refuse even to hear the offer are also making a choice. Maybe they imagine that cynicism is the same as neutrality. But it's not, of course. Cynicism is a declaration of intent to refuse.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:53 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:31 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:15 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:57 pm However, the sad fact is that most people are not willing, not ready even to do so much as try. They want to "win" the right not to search, rather than to be convinced. They prefer their lazy cynicism to the effort of having to ask God to reveal the truth to them. They don't want his claims on their life, and they don't want to be wrong about who they are and what they're doing. They don't want to trust; they want only to disprove.
How do you know it's "laziness" that keeps us from asking God to reveal the truth?
That's the kindest take on it, actually. It could be wickedness, or outright hostility, or the worst of all...refusal to believe. Laziness, wickedness, and even hostility are quite forgiveable...refusal to believe cannot be forgiven, because it refuses the very grounds of forgiveness.

What's wrong with refusing to believe? Shouldn't I withhold belief until I'm absolutely positive of what I'm believing in? For all I know maybe this God I'm addressing is the one the Agnostics tell us controls the world. Aren't/weren't the agnostics of the belief that Yahweh (the God of the Bible) is some sort of rogue God? I mean, maybe that's the case and we have a choice only to either believe or not believe in Yahweh and that's it. But, that's why I have said I'd rather go to oblivion than spend an eternity with a God who is more like an overbearing father (who would incidentally drown most of us, if we don't behave).

I mean, I'm sorry but maybe it's some sort of mistake that I was even born. Otherwise, I don't really fit in all that well in this world and don't get along so well and maybe wouldn't get along with everyone in heaven either. And I take it the alternative, going to Hell, is supposed to be eternal, horrible, unbearable, anguish (if one is even capable of utilizing words to describe "Hell").

Maybe God doesn't want me. If that's the case, then oblivion sounds about as good as anything else after living in this world. I mean, my basic needs have always been met. I'm alive. I'm here. But I've been through hell and back with depression and some pretty scary paranoid delusional episodes that were pretty hard to go through.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:12 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:53 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:31 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:15 pm

How do you know it's "laziness" that keeps us from asking God to reveal the truth?
That's the kindest take on it, actually. It could be wickedness, or outright hostility, or the worst of all...refusal to believe. Laziness, wickedness, and even hostility are quite forgiveable...refusal to believe cannot be forgiven, because it refuses the very grounds of forgiveness.
What's wrong with refusing to believe?

Refusal to believe God is refusal to believe the only One who can save a person from themselves, from a meaningless existence, from death, and from inheriting exactly whatever it is they're determined to sow. So one has been self-poisoned, and refused the antitode. The outcome is predictable and inevitable.

Shouldn't I withhold belief until I'm absolutely positive of what I'm believing in?

You should withhold it until you're reasonably certain, for sure. "Absolutely positive" is something nobody gets in any matter involving reality. But you don't have to decide early; all you have to do is be open to being persuaded. It's only when one shuts one's mind down to the point that one is unconvinceable that one has truly "disbelieved."

For all I know maybe this God I'm addressing is the one the Agnostics tell us controls the world.

If you open that conversation, you'll find out whether that's the case or not.

Aren't/weren't the agnostics of the belief that Yahweh (the God of the Bible) is some sort of rogue God?

No, the "agnostics" are an informal bunch who admit they don't know, either way. You mean the "Gnostics." They're the ones who believe that the "god" of the universe must be evil or rogue. They call him "the demiurge." But you can consider their claims, too, if you want. I've read a whole bunch of their stuff. I don't think that if you really come to know God yourself you'll find their claims at all persuasive.

I mean, I'm sorry but maybe it's some sort of mistake that I was even born.

In a secular universe, Gary, we'd all be accidents. But no, you're not.

Maybe God doesn't want me.

If that were true, He'd never have made you in the first place. As Christ said, "He who comes to Me, I will never cast out." (John 6:37) So that includes you.

I've been through hell and back with depression and some pretty scary paranoid delusional episodes that were pretty hard to go through.

Are you tired of all that, yet? If you are, why wouldn't you give it up for something better? But if you don't want to give that life up, then maybe it hasn't been so bad as you say, right? So which is it: have you had a life you're glad to give up, or one you prefer to cling to?

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:22 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:12 pm
I've been through hell and back with depression and some pretty scary paranoid delusional episodes that were pretty hard to go through.
Are you tired of all that, yet? If you are, why wouldn't you give it up for something better? But if you don't want to give that life up, then maybe it hasn't been so bad as you say, right? So which is it: have you had a life you're glad to give up, or one you prefer to cling to?

Yes. I'm very tired of it. If God can help life become better, then by all means...

As far as "clinging", the only thing I'm clinging to is her. Being with her gave me a glimpse of the closest thing to heaven on Earth that I've ever seen. I don't think anyone else in this world could substitute. If God is to make me into someone better, then I would hope it's someone who can be a better companion for her. If not, then I don't see how happiness is possible for me anymore, not after meeting her and seeing her slip away from my grasp.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:30 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:22 pm If God is to make me into someone better, then I would hope it's someone who can be a better companion for her.

That's a noble wish, Gary. And it's a big mistake many men make, when they focus on a woman, and forget that there is only a certain kind of man who is suitable for a certain kind of partner. There's no reason for her to want to be with a guy, if that guy is sad, pathetic, self-focused and weak. Why would she want a guy like that? What does he offer her? Will her life be better if she chains herself to a cinder-block of inertia like that? It's pretty easy to see she won't be thrilled by the offer. And worse: he can give her the impression that he's expecting her to "fix his happiness" for him, and make his life worth living. That's one heck of a lot of pressure...to be made responsible to fix another person's happiness. So why would she want that job, either? I don't think you'd want it.

But if you focus on becoming a better Gary, then anything's possible. However, if I judge what you're saying correctly, I think you know you're going to need help in overcoming the considerable obstacles that currently stand between you and the Gary you think you should be, and that you want to become. That is, again, where knowing God starts to come into play. A guy who's got his own act together, spiritually, morally and personally, is way more of an attractive partner than somebody who doesn't. But he's also just a happier, better person, whatever the outcome.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:31 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:12 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 4:53 pm
For all I know maybe this God I'm addressing is the one the Agnostics tell us controls the world.
If you open that conversation, you'll find out whether that's the case or not.
Aren't/weren't the agnostics of the belief that Yahweh (the God of the Bible) is some sort of rogue God?
No, the "agnostics" are an informal bunch who admit they don't know, either way. You mean the "Gnostics." They're the ones who believe that the "god" of the universe must be evil or rogue. They call him "the demiurge." But you can consider their claims, too, if you want. I've read a whole bunch of their stuff. I don't think that if you really come to know God yourself you'll find their claims at all persuasive.

Yes. My apologies. I meant "Gnostics." I'm so accustomed to typing the word "agnostic" that I was in habit mode.

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