Philosophy Now Forum

chaz wyman wrote:

SpheresOfBalance wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:
Yes - i'm talking about his monumental history of philosophy.

There is also Stanford Uni website which I'm sure you know about.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/

OR...

http://www.nietzsche.com/nietzschelink.html

Thanks, I'll check them out!

You might also try http://www.anus.com/zine/db/friedrich_nietzsche/
where you can access the texts directly.
This one I had to check out immediately, because of the URL I thought for sure, that you were fucking with me.

Again, Thanks for you time, I shall fully check them out soon, and give my report!

SpheresOfBalance wrote:He pissed me off and I put it down right here:

"What is good? - Whatever enhances people's feeling of power, will to power, power itself.
What is bad? - Everything stemming from weakness.
What is happiness? - The feeling that power is growing, that some resistance has been overcome.
Not contentedness, but more power; not peace, but war;
not virtue, but prowess (virtue in the style of the Renaissance, virtû,
moraline-free virtue).
The weak and the failures should perish: first principle of our love of humanity.
And they should be helped to do this.
What is more harmful than any vice? - Active pity for all failures and weakness - Christianity...."

After all, what is power and what is weakness?
And he's confused as to what part of Christianity is flawed, as that which is flawed is that it's wielder's use it as a means to control and to gain wealth and thus power. I see that he contradicts himself.

artisticsolution wrote:

SpheresOfBalance wrote:He pissed me off and I put it down right here:

"What is good? - Whatever enhances people's feeling of power, will to power, power itself.
What is bad? - Everything stemming from weakness.
What is happiness? - The feeling that power is growing, that some resistance has been overcome.
Not contentedness, but more power; not peace, but war;
not virtue, but prowess (virtue in the style of the Renaissance, virtû,
moraline-free virtue).
The weak and the failures should perish: first principle of our love of humanity.
And they should be helped to do this.
What is more harmful than any vice? - Active pity for all failures and weakness - Christianity...."

After all, what is power and what is weakness?
And he's confused as to what part of Christianity is flawed, as that which is flawed is that it's wielder's use it as a means to control and to gain wealth and thus power. I see that he contradicts himself.

Or does he? Let's just suppose here that he speaks the truth...for a moment. Let's ask ourselves what if we are wrong in our assessment of him because of our firmly held beliefs...beliefs put upon us by society.

1.Let's Ask ourselves to remove our preconceived ideas that the "weak" are people who need to protection from the "powerful." Let's suppose by "weak", he means those who believe what society tells them to believe...i.e. most everyone. Let's suppose by "powerful", he mean the rare individual who can rise above societies bullshit....i.e. hardly anyone...at least in the way N is describing.....

Then we can be a blank canvas like he requested in the beginning of the book and go one to understand....

2. He is asking us to put away our "Christian soldier mentality" that we were taught by society that "good" must conquer "evil." And that whatever it is that we perceive as "good"...is in itself a belief put upon us by society.

Then we can see the truth that the belief we have that causes us to leave a state of "peaceful contentedness" and go to "war" much like "Christians".

A Christian's power is God. That is his belief...a belief forced upon him by society...that he believes to the point of going to war is absurd.... i.e." I am going to war to make the world a better place." It's simple illogical.

So N is asking us to look at the absurdity of our beliefs when reading these statements of truth.... when he writes:

"What is good? - Whatever enhances people's feeling of power, will to power, power itself.
What is bad? - Everything stemming from weakness...."

He is saying it is weak to have a belief that society has implanted in us because that belief usually contradicts itself when put into action. i.e. "I will go to war for what I believe in because I am good."

No matter if it is a Christian ideal or an atheist ideal...the thought..."I will go to war because I am good." Is absurd as that is what causes war in the first place. The thought is "evil" (if you will) at it's core...because without the thought...there would be no war.

He then goes on to state:

"What is more harmful than any vice? - Active pity for all failures and weakness - Christianity...."

When we take up arms against people we do not know...because we merely believe they are "evil" in the name of our own "goodness" or what we believe is "good" then we have taken an action that we cannot know is good. What if what we perceive of as evil is in actuality mental illness? Is it really the "evil" ones fault if he is mentally ill? What if what we perceive of as evil is actually ignorance? Is it the "evil" one's fault if they are too stupid to understand? Is a mentally handicapped person responsible for his actions?

I think N is just asking us to think of the way we perceive ourselves as good and how in order to be good it is necessary for us to create "evil" where it may not exist.

I am sorry I had a hard time wording my thoughts...as they are complicated. Suffice to say that you had the same reaction I did when I first read that paragraph. But then I remembered that he told me that I would....lol. So I allowed him to be controversial and as I read it began to make more sense.

Just try letting go of your preconceived ideas when you read N. He reads in a whole new light. Not that my reading is the right one of course...I am just saying.

artisticsolution wrote:

SpheresOfBalance wrote:He pissed me off and I put it down right here:

"What is good? - Whatever enhances people's feeling of power, will to power, power itself.
What is bad? - Everything stemming from weakness.
What is happiness? - The feeling that power is growing, that some resistance has been overcome.
Not contentedness, but more power; not peace, but war;
not virtue, but prowess (virtue in the style of the Renaissance, virtû,
moraline-free virtue).
The weak and the failures should perish: first principle of our love of humanity.
And they should be helped to do this.
What is more harmful than any vice? - Active pity for all failures and weakness - Christianity...."

After all, what is power and what is weakness?
And he's confused as to what part of Christianity is flawed, as that which is flawed is that it's wielder's use it as a means to control and to gain wealth and thus power. I see that he contradicts himself.

Or does he? Let's just suppose here that he speaks the truth...for a moment. Let's ask ourselves what if we are wrong in our assessment of him because of our firmly held beliefs...beliefs put upon us by society.

1.Let's Ask ourselves to remove our preconceived ideas that the "weak" are people who need to protection from the "powerful." Let's suppose by "weak", he means those who believe what society tells them to believe...i.e. most everyone. Let's suppose by "powerful", he mean the rare individual who can rise above societies bullshit....i.e. hardly anyone...at least in the way N is describing.....

Then we can be a blank canvas like he requested in the beginning of the book and go one to understand....

2. He is asking us to put away our "Christian soldier mentality" that we were taught by society that "good" must conquer "evil." And that whatever it is that we perceive as "good"...is in itself a belief put upon us by society.

Then we can see the truth that the belief we have that causes us to leave a state of "peaceful contentedness" and go to "war" much like "Christians".

A Christian's power is God. That is his belief...a belief forced upon him by society...that he believes to the point of going to war is absurd.... i.e." I am going to war to make the world a better place." It's simple illogical.

So N is asking us to look at the absurdity of our beliefs when reading these statements of truth.... when he writes:

"What is good? - Whatever enhances people's feeling of power, will to power, power itself.
What is bad? - Everything stemming from weakness...."

He is saying it is weak to have a belief that society has implanted in us because that belief usually contradicts itself when put into action. i.e. "I will go to war for what I believe in because I am good."

No matter if it is a Christian ideal or an atheist ideal...the thought..."I will go to war because I am good." Is absurd as that is what causes war in the first place. The thought is "evil" (if you will) at it's core...because without the thought...there would be no war.

He then goes on to state:

"What is more harmful than any vice? - Active pity for all failures and weakness - Christianity...."

When we take up arms against people we do not know...because we merely believe they are "evil" in the name of our own "goodness" or what we believe is "good" then we have taken an action that we cannot know is good. What if what we perceive of as evil is in actuality mental illness? Is it really the "evil" ones fault if he is mentally ill? What if what we perceive of as evil is actually ignorance? Is it the "evil" one's fault if they are too stupid to understand? Is a mentally handicapped person responsible for his actions?

I think N is just asking us to think of the way we perceive ourselves as good and how in order to be good it is necessary for us to create "evil" where it may not exist.

I am sorry I had a hard time wording my thoughts...as they are complicated. Suffice to say that you had the same reaction I did when I first read that paragraph. But then I remembered that he told me that I would....lol. So I allowed him to be controversial and as I read it began to make more sense.

Just try letting go of your preconceived ideas when you read N. He reads in a whole new light. Not that my reading is the right one of course...I am just saying.

SpheresOfBalance wrote: It's kind of strange that you people seem to jump on the 'power' train as if it's the most important thing in the quote of his that I posted, as I see it's juxtaposition to weakness and his stated solution, as the most important. I'd like to see that book learned fuck perceive me as the weak and come to me and deal his solution, I'd reach down his throat and pull his anal sphincter out of his mouth. To speak of that solution is that of Hitlers Nazis, and I despise those fucks more than any others of recent history. You ever see video of Hitler, a pansy if I ever saw one. Him and I, face to face, one on one, hand to hand, in his offense, he'd take one look at me, turn tail and run like the coward that he was. If not and he was foolish enough to take on my defense, while knowing of his crimes, he'd be hamburger, as my event horizon sucked him in and spit him out, I absolutely hate, offenders with/of hate. I've seen videos of the Jews he abused, You see I've always loved every underdog of unjust violence, and played their protector, Like I've already said I've actually had the luxury, of diving in water to save the life of a drowning woman that I despised, as she tried to drown me, in her saving. To me life is super precious, and anyone that would attempt to take it for their selfish reasons, beware if I see your attempt, because I'll kick you so hard in your solar-plexus that your heart will instantly stop. And after, as a teenager, breaking concrete blocks with my bare feet on television, I think I could muster it, because one is not the number I'd rapidly deliver.

I have this thing about the sanctity of life, can you tell? This life in an infinite universe is a miracle, and I don't care from which camp of belief you hail, your life is yours and yours alone! PERIOD!!!!!!!

chaz wyman wrote:

SpheresOfBalance wrote: It's kind of strange that you people seem to jump on the 'power' train as if it's the most important thing in the quote of his that I posted, as I see it's juxtaposition to weakness and his stated solution, as the most important. I'd like to see that book learned fuck perceive me as the weak and come to me and deal his solution, I'd reach down his throat and pull his anal sphincter out of his mouth. To speak of that solution is that of Hitlers Nazis, and I despise those fucks more than any others of recent history. You ever see video of Hitler, a pansy if I ever saw one. Him and I, face to face, one on one, hand to hand, in his offense, he'd take one look at me, turn tail and run like the coward that he was. If not and he was foolish enough to take on my defense, while knowing of his crimes, he'd be hamburger, as my event horizon sucked him in and spit him out, I absolutely hate, offenders with/of hate. I've seen videos of the Jews he abused, You see I've always loved every underdog of unjust violence, and played their protector, Like I've already said I've actually had the luxury, of diving in water to save the life of a drowning woman that I despised, as she tried to drown me, in her saving. To me life is super precious, and anyone that would attempt to take it for their selfish reasons, beware if I see your attempt, because I'll kick you so hard in your solar-plexus that your heart will instantly stop. And after, as a teenager, breaking concrete blocks with my bare feet on television, I think I could muster it, because one is not the number I'd rapidly deliver.

I have this thing about the sanctity of life, can you tell? This life in an infinite universe is a miracle, and I don't care from which camp of belief you hail, your life is yours and yours alone! PERIOD!!!!!!!

It might be instructive to reflect upon your opening phrase "you people seem to...". When the people around you are trying to tell you something with one voice, maybe its time to pause for thought.
I don't think any one here is "jumping on the power train", whatever that is. So the question is what do you mean by it?

Nietzsche wrote:The weak and the failures should perish: first principle of our love of humanity. And they should be helped to do this.

SpheresOfBalance wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:

SpheresOfBalance wrote: It's kind of strange that you people seem to jump on the 'power' train as if it's the most important thing in the quote of his that I posted, as I see it's juxtaposition to weakness and his stated solution, as the most important. I'd like to see that book learned fuck perceive me as the weak and come to me and deal his solution, I'd reach down his throat and pull his anal sphincter out of his mouth. To speak of that solution is that of Hitlers Nazis, and I despise those fucks more than any others of recent history. You ever see video of Hitler, a pansy if I ever saw one. Him and I, face to face, one on one, hand to hand, in his offense, he'd take one look at me, turn tail and run like the coward that he was. If not and he was foolish enough to take on my defense, while knowing of his crimes, he'd be hamburger, as my event horizon sucked him in and spit him out, I absolutely hate, offenders with/of hate. I've seen videos of the Jews he abused, You see I've always loved every underdog of unjust violence, and played their protector, Like I've already said I've actually had the luxury, of diving in water to save the life of a drowning woman that I despised, as she tried to drown me, in her saving. To me life is super precious, and anyone that would attempt to take it for their selfish reasons, beware if I see your attempt, because I'll kick you so hard in your solar-plexus that your heart will instantly stop. And after, as a teenager, breaking concrete blocks with my bare feet on television, I think I could muster it, because one is not the number I'd rapidly deliver.

I have this thing about the sanctity of life, can you tell? This life in an infinite universe is a miracle, and I don't care from which camp of belief you hail, your life is yours and yours alone! PERIOD!!!!!!!

It might be instructive to reflect upon your opening phrase "you people seem to...". When the people around you are trying to tell you something with one voice, maybe its time to pause for thought.
I don't think any one here is "jumping on the power train", whatever that is. So the question is what do you mean by it?

Chaz, did you see that I wrote 'power,' not power, and train meant "train of thought" I meant that you seem to think that his power idea is the most important thing to consider while I think otherwise,

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Whether or not you said power train, or 'power' train, is not relevant as I no way think this "power idea" is the most important thing to consider. In fact I rarely use the word "power" at all.
And that is why I was so puzzled. The meaning of my enquiry is less to do with what you say about 'taking life' and more to do with why you are tarring "you people" with the same brush, especially since I do not belong to a group of people that use 'power' as a special discourse as if it were the most important thing.


and I don't care how anyone flips his meaning around in their mind's, the taking of lives is wrong period! It doesn't matter if good is evil and evil is good, or good is good and evil is evil, THE TAKING OF ANY LIFE IS WRONG!!!!!

Have you ever eaten a burger?
How about taking the life of a sniper that is shooting children in a playground?

Here, let me quote it again:

Nietzsche wrote:The weak and the failures should perish: first principle of our love of humanity. And they should be helped to do this.

Try and do your flip flop of meaning on that quote!

SpheresOfBalance wrote:

Nietzsche wrote:The weak and the failures should perish: first principle of our love of humanity. And they should be helped to do this.

Try and do your flip flop of meaning on that quote!

SpheresOfBalance wrote:It's kind of strange that you people seem to jump on the 'power' train as if it's the most important thing in the quote of his that I posted, as I see it's juxtaposition to weakness and his stated solution, as the most important. I'd like to see that book learned fuck perceive me as the weak and come to me and deal his solution, I'd reach down his throat and pull his anal sphincter out of his mouth. To speak of that solution is that of Hitlers Nazis, and I despise those fucks more than any others of recent history. You ever see video of Hitler, a pansy if I ever saw one. Him and I, face to face, one on one, hand to hand, in his offense, he'd take one look at me, turn tail and run like the coward that he was. If not and he was foolish enough to take on my defense, while knowing of his crimes, he'd be hamburger, as my event horizon sucked him in and spit him out, I absolutely hate, offenders with/of hate. I've seen videos of the Jews he abused, You see I've always loved every underdog of unjust violence, and played their protector, Like I've already said I've actually had the luxury, of diving in water to save the life of a drowning woman that I despised, as she tried to drown me, in her saving. To me life is super precious, and anyone that would attempt to take it for their selfish reasons, beware if I see your attempt, because I'll kick you so hard in your solar-plexus that your heart will instantly stop. And after, as a teenager, breaking concrete blocks with my bare feet on television, I think I could muster it, because one is not the number I'd rapidly deliver.

I have this thing about the sanctity of life, can you tell? This life in an infinite universe is a miracle, and I don't care from which camp of belief you hail, your life is yours and yours alone! PERIOD!!!!!!!

chaz wyman wrote:It might be instructive to reflect upon your opening phrase "you people seem to...". When the people around you are trying to tell you something with one voice, maybe its time to pause for thought.
I don't think any one here is "jumping on the power train", whatever that is. So the question is what do you mean by it?

SpheresOfBalance wrote:Chaz, did you see that I wrote 'power,' not power, and train meant "train of thought" I meant that you seem to think that his power idea is the most important thing to consider while I think otherwise,

chaz wyman wrote:Wrong, wrong, wrong. Whether or not you said power train, or 'power' train, is not relevant as I no way think this "power idea" is the most important thing to consider. In fact I rarely use the word "power" at all.
NO! I'm, right, right, right. But first, I can detect, as Lancek has indicated in the past, that you and I speak in different languages. For me I see it like this, I start with my critique of N's Antichrist by stating:

SpheresOfBalance wrote:He pissed me off and I put it down right here:

"What is good? - Whatever enhances people's feeling of power, will to power, power itself.
What is bad? - Everything stemming from weakness.
What is happiness? - The feeling that power is growing, that some resistance has been overcome.
Not contentedness, but more power; not peace, but war;
not virtue, but prowess (virtue in the style of the Renaissance, virtû,
moraline-free virtue).
The weak and the failures should perish: first principle of our love of humanity.
And they should be helped to do this.
What is more harmful than any vice? - Active pity for all failures and weakness - Christianity...."

After all, what is power and what is weakness?
And he's confused as to what part of Christianity is flawed, as that which is flawed is that it's wielder's use it as a means to control and to gain wealth and thus power. I see that he contradicts himself.

In the introduction they posed the possibility that by the time he wrote this book he had already succumbed to insanity. I then sensed that at least some of those that posed this possibility, decided that he was still clear of mind. But without reading any of his earlier work, I've decided that due to the above quoted excerpt, he was definitely insane.

Then, in response to my initial post in this thread your initial retort is as follows:

chaz wyman wrote:I think you might have missed N's self critical approach. There is no system in N's work and no ideas that are not somewhere else in his work critiqued by his own pen.
You ought also to be aware that his "Will to Power" thesis was largely an invention of his sister's doctoring his work after his death.

Do you notice that of all the words that I quoted from N's Antichrist the one you decide to specifically elaborate on is his 'will to "power"', you ignored all the rest, such that I can only assume that when you look at my quote of N and how I put it down, that you see the crux of my decision to be that of power or why else would you address that specific item, and that item only?

Then later, artisticsolution comes along and again only really addresses the "Power" and "weakness" issue, totally ignoring the

Nietzsche wrote:The weak and the failures should perish: first principle of our love of humanity. And they should be helped to do this.

issue, lets call it the "weak should be killed" issue, because she knows that in fact it doesn't fit her flip flopping tact, she can't do anything with it, she can't account for it, and to her assertion you say this:

chaz wyman wrote:I think you are on to something.

Thus again reinforcing your belief that Power/Weakness are the standout concepts here and not the "weak should be killed" issue, which is in fact the issue that I see as the crux of the matter. All the rest of her point as to war and power, at least I consider, to go without saying, its elementary, at least to me! So what do you mean that you didn't say anything about "power?" Of my quote of N, that's "all" you did refer to, either directly or indirectly. What are you talking about? All the rest was general info on how I should approach him.

And that is why I was so puzzled. The meaning of my enquiry is less to do with what you say about 'taking life' and more to do with why you are tarring "you people" with the same brush, especially since I do not belong to a group of people that use 'power' as a special discourse as if it were the most important thing.


and I don't care how anyone flips his meaning around in their mind's, the taking of lives is wrong period! It doesn't matter if good is evil and evil is good, or good is good and evil is evil, THE TAKING OF ANY LIFE IS WRONG!!!!!

Have you ever eaten a burger?
How about taking the life of a sniper that is shooting children in a playground?

Here, let me quote it again:

Nietzsche wrote:The weak and the failures should perish: first principle of our love of humanity. And they should be helped to do this.

Try and do your flip flop of meaning on that quote!
There is nothing to flip-flop.
Nietzsche is NOT recommending any killing here.
He is recommending the cessation of Christianity and the servile attitude it promotes.
BS, critique/dissect it piece by piece, figure me a student in class that just raised his hand and explain each part of N's quote and how it fits your interpretation. You can't! OK. I'll give you the benefit of doubt, I'm waiting, if you care to?

artisticsolution wrote:Okay...so now that we are able to see that just entertaining a thought is not evil nor is it good...we can then break free in our ability to ask certain questions that we would not be able to ask otherwise. We can go where no man fear to think. We can think beyond our own morality to question what we have been taught and hold it up to other thoughts and scrutinize them all...and we also have the power to "return" to ourselves when we are done! What a freedom to allow ourselves!

Now that we can do that...then we can enter a place that is especially difficult for most of us...and that is the place where we can question honestly our own belief that we are "good". I will grant you this is especially difficult for most...because we want so badly to be good. We want to make a difference....and whatever the difference...we believe the thought good because we had it. Hitler believed his ideal purpose was good...just as you believe yours is good. Now again....you are looking at yourself ...analyze your actions from the point of view of a nihilist....your beliefs are neither good nor bad. It helps me to go over board here and believe all my beliefs are evil...that is how firmly entrenched in the belief that I am good....lol...it is the only way I can get over the hump and into neutrality. It is then that I can neutralize that thought in order to let go of my preconceived ideas about myself..and since it is only imagining...I can return to my firmly held beliefs later.

Okay...now we are ready to venture into N.....or at least my reading of him. Did you ever see devil's advocate with Keanu Reeves and Al Pacino? It is about fighting evil...and how perhaps we are powerless in that respect. In the end, keanu triumphs over evil....but does he really? For just as soon as he makes one decision...that society see's as "good" he is thrust into a repercussion of that decision which yet again brings him to "evil"..This gave hint to the thought that being a "Christian soldier" is futile....in other words...."christain soldier" is an oxymoron. As there is no way to be "good" and commit an "evil" act. ...and since we cannot know for sure who is "evil" and who is "good" we are bound toward doing evil by merely living with the thought...."I must kill evil."

To me that is what N meant when he said:

"Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster; and if you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes into you."

Now that we are through with these thoughts...we can happily return to being who we are...or can we?

Nietzsche wrote:The weak and the failures should perish: first principle of our love of humanity. And they should be helped to do this.