Re: New Discovery
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2025 5:02 pm
For the discussion of all things philosophical.
https://canzookia.com/
No, but firstly, you are calling the details unnecessary (which they are not) and secondly, it is not about explaining the reasoning to only those who are infatuated. It's about explaining the necessary details to anyone who wants to understand what it's about. You don't have to be infatuated to learn something, but you seem so sure he has nothing to offer that your premature responses don't surprise me. It's like you can't wait to find ways to discredit him.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 4:04 pmI have agreed to stipulate to all of your conclusions thus far.peacegirl wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 2:58 pmIt’s too easy to criticize when I barely started. If you think he’s wrong, so be it. Anyone who is interested in the book can read the first 3 chapters which I offered. That’s really all I have to say.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 2:49 pm Hmmm. Currently I am happy to stipulate to:
Determinism. Seemingly this is to be incompatibilist hard determinism - under which theory it is further stipulated that 'ought implies can', or in other words there is no means to direct blame or praise to those whose actions are guided entirely by inescapable material causation. Somewhere further down the line apparently this circle will be squared by clever argument that restores those missing things.
Causal Motive Forces. Normally this would go without saying, but seemingly we are required to make a special note of the role of motivation in "moving" creatures away from what they find unsatisfying towards greater satisfaction. Presumably this is somehow key to the aforementioned transformation. Consider this also stipulated.
Hopefully Lessan's own arguments on behalf of these things are moot if we stipulate to the outcomes of them. I can be a determinist based on arguments of Churchland or Fischer, and I can throw in the incompatibilism easily enough, as its the intuitive default.
But erm, that "mathematical (undeniable) reasoning" .... yeesh. Let's just not with that bit please.
I similarly propose to politely skip over the bit about free will implying preferences for non-preferred things. It's hopefully not necessary to the big discovery yet to come. And the dress shopping example. And the head in the bucket.
None of these matters, determinism is stipulated, as is that everybody is motivated to pursue ends and by definition those ends which they pursue are the ones they take to be the best.
But I have to add one more thing.....
That's what I'm talking about when I say he uses his fictional counterpart to pitch himself the softest possible balls.
Are you saying that you can only explain the reasoning of your case to those who are infatuated with the unnecessary details of the supporting case?
I don't demand anything except respect. No one is telling you to believe every input, but I have hardly posted anything and you're already telling me all the things you don't like (form wise), without asking any pertinent questions. Did you understand what he meant when he said, "nothing causes", which is the hallmark of the definition that is causing confusion?FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 5:02 pmI am stipulating to every meaningful outcome of any of these arguments. You cannot demand I must believe every input in order to be allowed to progress. That's unreasonable.
I am stipulating to everything that I possibly can. There is some stuff I can't endorse because it is just bad. so that stuff I commit only to understanding, not to endorsing and not to stipulating because it doesn't make sense.peacegirl wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 6:08 pmNo, but firstly, you are calling the details unnecessary (which they are not) and secondly, it is not about explaining the reasoning to only those who are infatuated. It's about explaining the necessary details to anyone who wants to understand what it's about. You don't have to be infatuated to learn something, but you seem so sure he has nothing to offer that your premature responses don't surprise me. It's like you can't wait to find ways to discredit him.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 4:04 pmI have agreed to stipulate to all of your conclusions thus far.
Are you saying that you can only explain the reasoning of your case to those who are infatuated with the unnecessary details of the supporting case?
Presumably that's hyperbole. If the persons in question are products of deterministic causation, then to say "nothing causes man to build cities..." isn't to be taken literally as that would definitely contradict all the determinism. But please help me understand whatever it is that I have missed.
You missed why his definition is more accurate because the word "cause" is misleading. Moreover, his definition is more accurate because it corresponds with reality in that the past causes nothing. How can it if the past doesn't exist except in our memory bank. It is impossible to choose what gives us less satisfaction when something better is available, which is why we can only move in one direction, and why will is not free to choose A (to shoot someone for example) or B (not to shoot this person) when B is the preferable choice. We are under a compulsion to choose what we believe is the better alternative when meaningful differences are under consideration. But what gives one person greater satisfaction going from "here" to "there" (or moment to moment) may not be the same for someone else, because we are different to a degree.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:10 pmPresumably that's hyperbole. If the persons in question are products of deterministic causation, then to say "nothing causes man to build cities..." isn't to be taken literally as that would definitely contradict all the determinism. But please help me understand whatever it is that I have missed.
Sure, ok. Carry on.peacegirl wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:43 pmYou missed why his definition is more accurate because the word "cause" is misleading. Moreover, his definition is more accurate because it corresponds with reality in that the past causes nothing. How can it if the past doesn't exist except in our memory bank. It is impossible to choose what gives us less satisfaction when something better is available. But what gives one person satisfaction may not be so for someone else, because we are different to a degree.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:10 pmPresumably that's hyperbole. If the persons in question are products of deterministic causation, then to say "nothing causes man to build cities..." isn't to be taken literally as that would definitely contradict all the determinism. But please help me understand whatever it is that I have missed.
“Just because some differences are so obviously superior in value where you are concerned that no hesitation is required to decide which is preferable, while other differences need a more careful consideration, does not change the direction of life which moves always towards greater satisfaction than what the present position offers. You must bear in mind that what one person judges good or bad for himself doesn’t make it so for others, especially when it is remembered that a juxtaposition of differences in each case presents alternatives that affect choice.”
Once a decision is made, it could not have been otherwise. This does not mean that when a similar situation presents itself, we can't learn from previous experience and make a better choice the second time around.
Are you sure? This cutting and pasting is necessary for understanding, but I don't want to continue if you already disagree with what he's written thus far. It's draining. This does not mean you can't disagree but you have to give him a chance.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:48 pmSure, ok. Carry on.peacegirl wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:43 pmYou missed why his definition is more accurate because the word "cause" is misleading. Moreover, his definition is more accurate because it corresponds with reality in that the past causes nothing. How can it if the past doesn't exist except in our memory bank. It is impossible to choose what gives us less satisfaction when something better is available. But what gives one person satisfaction may not be so for someone else, because we are different to a degree.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:10 pm
Presumably that's hyperbole. If the persons in question are products of deterministic causation, then to say "nothing causes man to build cities..." isn't to be taken literally as that would definitely contradict all the determinism. But please help me understand whatever it is that I have missed.
“Just because some differences are so obviously superior in value where you are concerned that no hesitation is required to decide which is preferable, while other differences need a more careful consideration, does not change the direction of life which moves always towards greater satisfaction than what the present position offers. You must bear in mind that what one person judges good or bad for himself doesn’t make it so for others, especially when it is remembered that a juxtaposition of differences in each case presents alternatives that affect choice.”
Once a decision is made, it could not have been otherwise. This does not mean that when a similar situation presents itself, we can't learn from previous experience and make a better choice the second time around.
Fine. Continue.peacegirl wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:26 pm ...
This reveals, as your friend just pointed out, that man has absolute control over the former but absolutely none over the latter because he must constantly move in the direction of greater satisfaction. It is true that nothing in the past can cause what occurs in the present, for all we ever have is the present; the past and future are only words that describe a deceptive relation. [/i]
I am doing that. It's fine. Continue.peacegirl wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:53 pmAre you sure? This cutting and pasting is necessary for understanding, but I don't want to continue if you already disagree with what he's written thus far. It's draining. This does not mean you can't disagree but you have to give him a chance.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:48 pmSure, ok. Carry on.peacegirl wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 9:43 pm
You missed why his definition is more accurate because the word "cause" is misleading. Moreover, his definition is more accurate because it corresponds with reality in that the past causes nothing. How can it if the past doesn't exist except in our memory bank. It is impossible to choose what gives us less satisfaction when something better is available. But what gives one person satisfaction may not be so for someone else, because we are different to a degree.
“Just because some differences are so obviously superior in value where you are concerned that no hesitation is required to decide which is preferable, while other differences need a more careful consideration, does not change the direction of life which moves always towards greater satisfaction than what the present position offers. You must bear in mind that what one person judges good or bad for himself doesn’t make it so for others, especially when it is remembered that a juxtaposition of differences in each case presents alternatives that affect choice.”
Once a decision is made, it could not have been otherwise. This does not mean that when a similar situation presents itself, we can't learn from previous experience and make a better choice the second time around.
Very good, continue.peacegirl wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 10:03 pm ...
This knowledge was not available before now, and what is revealed as each individual becomes conscious of his true nature is something fantastic to behold, for it not only gives ample proof that evil is no accident, but it will also put an end to every conceivable kind of hurt that exists in human relations. There will take place a virtual miracle of transformation as each person consciously realizes WHAT IT MEANS that his will is not free, which has not yet been revealed. And now I shall demonstrate how these two undeniable laws or principles — that nothing can compel man to do anything against his will because over this his nature allows absolute control — and that his will is not free because his nature also compels him to prefer of available alternatives the one that offers greater satisfaction — will reveal a third invariable law, the discovery to which reference has been made.[/i]