Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:13 pm**

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 7:00 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 11:33 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 2:01 am

Sorry this is still too vague. Can you elaborate? It would be helpful if you would just spell it all out for me.
Siegfried Sassoon does it better than I can:

https://poets.org/poem/redeemer
Still no idea of what that has to do with the "The Christian doctrine of the Atonement" which typically entails something along the lines of the following:

According to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, atonement in Christian theology is "man's reconciliation with God through the sacrificial death of Christ.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation ... #Atonement

Would it kill you to spell out what you have in mind?

It means we are all sacrificial lambs if the whole truth be known. Now and again this fact becomes clear as it did for the war poet Sassoon; and as it does in 2025 when we learn that medics in Gaza have been murdered because they would not relinquish their humanitarian duties. Self sacrifice is the theme of the Atonement. Jesus ' passion is the iconic example of the human species as rational and beautiful.

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2025 12:51 am**

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:13 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 7:00 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 11:33 am
Siegfried Sassoon does it better than I can:

https://poets.org/poem/redeemer
Still no idea of what that has to do with the "The Christian doctrine of the Atonement" which typically entails something along the lines of the following:

According to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, atonement in Christian theology is "man's reconciliation with God through the sacrificial death of Christ.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation ... #Atonement

Would it kill you to spell out what you have in mind?
It means we are all sacrificial lambs if the whole truth be known. Now and again this fact becomes clear as it did for the war poet Sassoon; and as it does in 2025 when we learn that medics in Gaza have been murdered because they would not relinquish their humanitarian duties. Self sacrifice is the theme of the Atonement. Jesus ' passion is the iconic example of the human species as rational and beautiful.

At the core of "The Christian Doctrine of the Atonement" is that the "sacrificial death of Christ" serves as atonement for the sins of others. How is this "rational"? It's not only not rational, it's perverse. Even more perverse is that a high majority of Christians believe that this atonement only applies to those who believe that the ""sacrificial death of Christ" serves as atonement for the sins of believers. This effectively makes not believing it as the only sin that God cannot forgive. In other words, God is okay with murderers, rapists, etc., but cannot abide those who do not believe it. What makes it even worse is that this concept is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus.

Where does the "self-sacrifice" of those other than Jesus fit into this? How are "we all sacrificial lambs"?

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:00 pm**

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 12:51 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:13 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 7:00 pm

Still no idea of what that has to do with the "The Christian doctrine of the Atonement" which typically entails something along the lines of the following:

According to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, atonement in Christian theology is "man's reconciliation with God through the sacrificial death of Christ.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation ... #Atonement

Would it kill you to spell out what you have in mind?
It means we are all sacrificial lambs if the whole truth be known. Now and again this fact becomes clear as it did for the war poet Sassoon; and as it does in 2025 when we learn that medics in Gaza have been murdered because they would not relinquish their humanitarian duties. Self sacrifice is the theme of the Atonement. Jesus ' passion is the iconic example of the human species as rational and beautiful.
At the core of "The Christian Doctrine of the Atonement" is that the "sacrificial death of Christ" serves as atonement for the sins of others. How is this "rational"? It's not only not rational, it's perverse. Even more perverse is that a high majority of Christians believe that this atonement only applies to those who believe that the ""sacrificial death of Christ" serves as atonement for the sins of believers. This effectively makes not believing it as the only sin that God cannot forgive. In other words, God is okay with murderers, rapists, etc., but cannot abide those who do not believe it. What makes it even worse is that this concept is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus.

Where does the "self-sacrifice" of those other than Jesus fit into this? How are "we all sacrificial lambs"?

We are all sacrificial lambs in the sense that human life(and the lives of other sentient creatures) takes place in an environment that is mostly cruel and unjust. We are all lambs to the slaughter: if we are not killing other life forms to survive we are slaughtering each other in wars. Our only saving grace as human beings is to willingly sacrifice ourselves for others' sake.

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:03 pm**

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:00 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 12:51 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:13 pm
It means we are all sacrificial lambs if the whole truth be known. Now and again this fact becomes clear as it did for the war poet Sassoon; and as it does in 2025 when we learn that medics in Gaza have been murdered because they would not relinquish their humanitarian duties. Self sacrifice is the theme of the Atonement. Jesus ' passion is the iconic example of the human species as rational and beautiful.
At the core of "The Christian Doctrine of the Atonement" is that the "sacrificial death of Christ" serves as atonement for the sins of others. How is this "rational"? It's not only not rational, it's perverse. Even more perverse is that a high majority of Christians believe that this atonement only applies to those who believe that the ""sacrificial death of Christ" serves as atonement for the sins of believers. This effectively makes not believing it as the only sin that God cannot forgive. In other words, God is okay with murderers, rapists, etc., but cannot abide those who do not believe it. What makes it even worse is that this concept is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus.

Where does the "self-sacrifice" of those other than Jesus fit into this? How are "we all sacrificial lambs"?
We are all sacrificial lambs in the sense that human life(and the lives of other sentient creatures) takes place in an environment that is mostly cruel and unjust. We are all lambs to the slaughter: if we are not killing other life forms to survive we are slaughtering each other in wars. Our only saving grace as human beings is to willingly sacrifice ourselves for others' sake.

You are too annoyed about the official Doctrine of the Atonement to see how it may be improved upon.You don't need to deny , but to evolve it.

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:35 pm**

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:03 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:00 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 12:51 am

At the core of "The Christian Doctrine of the Atonement" is that the "sacrificial death of Christ" serves as atonement for the sins of others. How is this "rational"? It's not only not rational, it's perverse. Even more perverse is that a high majority of Christians believe that this atonement only applies to those who believe that the ""sacrificial death of Christ" serves as atonement for the sins of believers. This effectively makes not believing it as the only sin that God cannot forgive. In other words, God is okay with murderers, rapists, etc., but cannot abide those who do not believe it. What makes it even worse is that this concept is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus.

Where does the "self-sacrifice" of those other than Jesus fit into this? How are "we all sacrificial lambs"?
We are all sacrificial lambs in the sense that human life(and the lives of other sentient creatures) takes place in an environment that is mostly cruel and unjust. We are all lambs to the slaughter: if we are not killing other life forms to survive we are slaughtering each other in wars. Our only saving grace as human beings is to willingly sacrifice ourselves for others' sake.

You are too annoyed about the official Doctrine of the Atonement to see how it may be improved upon.You don't need to deny , but to evolve it.

The point you keep missing is that what you're proposing has absolutely nothing to do with "The Christian Doctrine of Atonement" as you asserted.

You've also failed to demonstrate how "human beings...willingly sacrific[ing] ourselves for others' sake" makes atonement for anyone. Or is a "saving grace" for that matter.

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:00 pm**

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:35 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:03 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:00 pm
We are all sacrificial lambs in the sense that human life(and the lives of other sentient creatures) takes place in an environment that is mostly cruel and unjust. We are all lambs to the slaughter: if we are not killing other life forms to survive we are slaughtering each other in wars. Our only saving grace as human beings is to willingly sacrifice ourselves for others' sake.

You are too annoyed about the official Doctrine of the Atonement to see how it may be improved upon.You don't need to deny , but to evolve it.

The point you keep missing is that what you're proposing has absolutely nothing to do with "The Christian Doctrine of Atonement" as you asserted.

You've also failed to demonstrate how "human beings...willingly sacrific[ing] ourselves for others' sake" makes atonement for anyone. Or is a "saving grace" for that matter.

Do you not see that the Doctrine of the Atonement is meant to save the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave? What do you think the Doctrine of the Atonement is for?

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:42 pm**

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:00 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:35 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:03 pm
The point you keep missing is that what you're proposing has absolutely nothing to do with "The Christian Doctrine of Atonement" as you asserted.

You've also failed to demonstrate how "human beings...willingly sacrific[ing] ourselves for others' sake" makes atonement for anyone. Or is a "saving grace" for that matter.
Do you not see that the Doctrine of the Atonement is meant to save the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave? What do you think the Doctrine of the Atonement is for?

By all means, explain exactly how the "Doctrine of the Atonement" is a reasonable means for saving 'the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave." Walk me through it, step-by step.

Posted: **Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:28 pm**

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:00 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:35 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:03 pm
The point you keep missing is that what you're proposing has absolutely nothing to do with "The Christian Doctrine of Atonement" as you asserted.

You've also failed to demonstrate how "human beings...willingly sacrific[ing] ourselves for others' sake" makes atonement for anyone. Or is a "saving grace" for that matter.
Do you not see that the Doctrine of the Atonement is meant to save the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave? What do you think the Doctrine of the Atonement is for?

On our propensity to choose to misbehave of the opposite.

Baby Lab experiments show that we naturally default to love and cooperation and not to hate and the competition of the misbehaviors.

We are born to kiss the breast and not bite it by default because it is the best survival strategy.

I have links.

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:47 am**

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:42 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:00 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:35 pm

The point you keep missing is that what you're proposing has absolutely nothing to do with "The Christian Doctrine of Atonement" as you asserted.

You've also failed to demonstrate how "human beings...willingly sacrific[ing] ourselves for others' sake" makes atonement for anyone. Or is a "saving grace" for that matter.
Do you not see that the Doctrine of the Atonement is meant to save the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave? What do you think the Doctrine of the Atonement is for?
By all means, explain exactly how the "Doctrine of the Atonement" is a reasonable means for saving 'the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave." Walk me through it, step-by step.

Why do you believe, absolutely, that there is an inbuilt biological propensity in the human species to misbehave?

What would be the actual purpose of having this, supposed and alleged, 'inbuilt propensity', exactly?

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:51 am**

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:28 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:00 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:35 pm

The point you keep missing is that what you're proposing has absolutely nothing to do with "The Christian Doctrine of Atonement" as you asserted.

You've also failed to demonstrate how "human beings...willingly sacrific[ing] ourselves for others' sake" makes atonement for anyone. Or is a "saving grace" for that matter.
Do you not see that the Doctrine of the Atonement is meant to save the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave? What do you think the Doctrine of the Atonement is for?
On our propensity to choose to misbehave of the opposite.

Baby Lab experiments show that we naturally default to love and cooperation and not to hate and the competition of the misbehaviors.

No one needs a 'lab experiment' to bear witness to this irrefutable Fact. One only has to 'look' and 'observe' the 'universal environment', or 'a lab' if one likes, to 'see' that the instinct within human beings is to love, and cherish, one another.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:28 pm We are born to kiss the breast and not bite it by default because it is the best survival strategy.

I have links.

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2025 1:02 am**

Age wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:47 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:42 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:00 pm
Do you not see that the Doctrine of the Atonement is meant to save the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave? What do you think the Doctrine of the Atonement is for?
By all means, explain exactly how the "Doctrine of the Atonement" is a reasonable means for saving 'the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave." Walk me through it, step-by step.
Why do you believe, absolutely, that there is an inbuilt biological propensity in the human species to misbehave?

What would be the actual purpose of having this, supposed and alleged, 'inbuilt propensity', exactly?

You seem to have overlooked the fact that I was quoting Belinda.

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2025 1:44 am**

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 1:02 am
Age wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:47 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:42 pm

By all means, explain exactly how the "Doctrine of the Atonement" is a reasonable means for saving 'the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave." Walk me through it, step-by step.
Why do you believe, absolutely, that there is an inbuilt biological propensity in the human species to misbehave?

What would be the actual purpose of having this, supposed and alleged, 'inbuilt propensity', exactly?
You seem to have overlooked the fact that I was quoting Belinda.

Yes i have. I apologize for my mistake.

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2025 11:14 am**

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 12:51 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:13 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 7:00 pm

Still no idea of what that has to do with the "The Christian doctrine of the Atonement" which typically entails something along the lines of the following:

According to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, atonement in Christian theology is "man's reconciliation with God through the sacrificial death of Christ.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation ... #Atonement

Would it kill you to spell out what you have in mind?
It means we are all sacrificial lambs if the whole truth be known. Now and again this fact becomes clear as it did for the war poet Sassoon; and as it does in 2025 when we learn that medics in Gaza have been murdered because they would not relinquish their humanitarian duties. Self sacrifice is the theme of the Atonement. Jesus ' passion is the iconic example of the human species as rational and beautiful.
At the core of "The Christian Doctrine of the Atonement" is that the "sacrificial death of Christ" serves as atonement for the sins of others. How is this "rational"? It's not only not rational, it's perverse. Even more perverse is that a high majority of Christians believe that this atonement only applies to those who believe that the ""sacrificial death of Christ" serves as atonement for the sins of believers. This effectively makes not believing it as the only sin that God cannot forgive. In other words, God is okay with murderers, rapists, etc., but cannot abide those who do not believe it. What makes it even worse is that this concept is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus.

Where does the "self-sacrifice" of those other than Jesus fit into this? How are "we all sacrificial lambs"?

There always losers. In the end even successful people will die. Even the top predators , eagles, tigers, wolves , and humans will suffer and die. That is the way of the world and that is why we are all 'sacrificial lambs.' The world is full of suffering and death and all living things are sacrificed to the natural conditions of life.

Jesus Christ is the iconic man who transcended suffering and grief for the sake of others.

Many other human beings resemble Jesus Christ in caring more for others than for themselves. You don't need to look far to see them and even know them.

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2025 11:28 am**

Age wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:47 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:42 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:00 pm
Do you not see that the Doctrine of the Atonement is meant to save the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave? What do you think the Doctrine of the Atonement is for?
By all means, explain exactly how the "Doctrine of the Atonement" is a reasonable means for saving 'the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave." Walk me through it, step-by step.
Why do you believe, absolutely, that there is an inbuilt biological propensity in the human species to misbehave?

What would be the actual purpose of having this, supposed and alleged, 'inbuilt propensity', exactly?

There is no "purpose "for our human propensity to be the top predators (so far

! ). It is a natural and historical fact that is the case, that we live off other species and sometimes also each other by stealing their lands and their lives.

I believe that because I am aware of man -made climate change, the pity of wars, not enough people eating vegan food, and so forth.

I called the above "misbehaviour" because I hoped the understatement may be more telling than the bare facts.

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:10 pm**

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 11:28 am
Age wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:47 am
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:42 pm

By all means, explain exactly how the "Doctrine of the Atonement" is a reasonable means for saving 'the human species from its inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave." Walk me through it, step-by step.
Why do you believe, absolutely, that there is an inbuilt biological propensity in the human species to misbehave?

What would be the actual purpose of having this, supposed and alleged, 'inbuilt propensity', exactly?
There is no "purpose "for our human propensity to be the top predators (so far ! ).

Who has ever even thought, let alone said, that there was any 'purpose' for human propensity to be the top predators?

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 11:28 am It is a natural and historical fact that is the case, that we live off other species and sometimes also each other by stealing their lands and their lives.

So what if it is a fact that you adult human beings 'misbehave'?

'This' in and of itself never means that 'misbehaving' is an 'inbuilt biological propensity' at all.

And, the Fact that all 'mis/behavior' is learned, and not instinctive, is just another thing, which you human beings, in the days when this is being written, have just not yet learned, and fully comprehended and understood.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 11:28 am I believe that because I am aware of man -made climate change, the pity of wars, not enough people eating vegan food, and so forth.

Because you are aware of 'these things', then 'what', exactly?

Or, are you saying that the reason you believe that you adult human beings live off other species, as well as your own, is because you are aware of adult human-made climate change, the pity of wars, and not enough people eating vegan food, et cetera?

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 11:28 am I called the above "misbehaviour" because I hoped the understatement may be more telling than the bare facts.

What?

you, well previously, claimed that within you 'belinda' there is an 'inbuilt biological propensity to misbehave'. So, i am just asking, for clarity sake,

'Why do you believe, absolutely, that there is an inbuilt biological propensity in the human species to misbehave?'

And then, for clarity sake also, i just asked the question,

'What would be the actual purpose of having this, supposed and alleged, 'inbuilt propensity', exactly?'

Philosophy Now Forum

What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?

Re: What is the concept of God philosophically?