Philosophy Now Forum

And no, those are not misquotes.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:59 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:54 pmI believe you, except Covid was not around 20 years ago.

I remember when I didn't believe the "conspiracy theorists" too... looks like you have some rabbit holes to dive into:


https://www.cdc.gov/sars/about/fs-sars.html

What is SARS?

Severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) is a viral respiratory illness caused by a coronavirus, called SARS-associated coronavirus (SARS-CoV). SARS was first reported in Asia in February 2003. Over the next few months, the illness spread to more than two dozen countries in North America, South America, Europe, and Asia before the SARS global outbreak of 2003 was contained. This fact sheet gives basic information about the illness and what CDC did to control SARS in the United States.

Good source, but was Coronavirus 19 involved in the 2003 outbreak?

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Jun 22, 2023 2:30 pmGood source, but was Coronavirus 19 involved in the 2003 outbreak?

Why does it matter which exact virus it was? There are variants.

Look into: Gain-of-Function research, and get back to me...

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:56 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Jun 22, 2023 2:30 pmGood source, but was Coronavirus 19 involved in the 2003 outbreak?

Why does it matter which exact virus it was? There are variants.

Look into: Gain-of-Function research, and get back to me...

Yes, but if the variants’ differences were insignificant there would have been no need for different vaccines.

I’m with you, but there seems to be a glitch.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 amClarity of mind involves at least a few different functions.

First of all it requires self-awareness and self-consciousness.

If 'you' are, REALLY, self-aware, then who and/or what is that 'one', EXACTLY?

And, while 'we' are here, what the proper and correct answer to the question, 'Who am 'I'?'

Let us SEE just how 'self'-AWARE 'you' REALLY ARE.

Self-awareness is as simple as young children or infants recognizing themselves in a mirror. This happens at different ages, according to their individual intelligence & IQ. So this leads to the question: what is self? This means that organisms, such as Humans, and Mammals, and all other intellectually evolved animals, have sophisticated means of self-identification. When babies are born, they tend to gnaw on their own limbs, fingers, feet, and put anything they can grab into their mouths. This is a difference of what can be imbibed, as an extension of Self.

So, at the very least, you cannot and do not consume your "Self". Your body is then identified and separated, from others, by this basic, physical, physiological division.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am You need to be aware of yourself, your thoughts, your beliefs, and your biases.

So, what was 'your' ANSWER to the QUESTION, 'Who am 'I'?'

Who are 'you', personally? You are a person behind the Username "Age" on this philosophy forum. It would be different I saw you face-to-face, heard your voice. Instead, using textual exchange, I get to observe your logic, rationale, and beliefs. So I identify you by this means. Furthermore, your eccentric and over-exaggerated writing style, signals to me, a very Autistic/Asperger mindset.

You are socially awkward, socially inept, perhaps lack the ability to empathize, or at least socialize with others.

You likely have a weak or absent father figure in your life. You lack mental discipline.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am In your case, personally, you've claimed that you "have no beliefs".

What the ACTUAL and FULL Truth IS here, EXACTLY, you are YET TO FIND OUT, UNDERSTAND, and KNOW.

But 'this' will do, for now.

No, it "will not do". You lied about having no beliefs. Or, you simply are unaware of the beliefs you do have.

You lack self-awareness, self-consciousness. So you either lack intelligence (which I doubt), or more likely, you do not have self-conceptions, and therefore lack self-consciousness. You cannot...or will not...you refuse to imagine how others see and perceive you. This is typical of Autists.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am This demonstrates lack of clarity.

Yes 'we' can AGREE WITH 'this'.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Everybody has beliefs.

So what are the BELIEFS that new born children have?

Newborn children believe that their senses are Real.
They have no reason (yet) to distrust their sense-perception.
They have no reason to disbelieve in Reality.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Because everybody has presumptions about mechanical operations of the world.

This is OBVIOUSLY False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and Incorrect.

It's True, Right, Accurate, and Correct.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am For example, if somebody trips you, then you will fall. Your belief in Gravity, is given, by your expectation (to fall).

you are Wrong, AGAIN.

I am Right, AGAIN.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Belief is directed toward the source of Causes.

ONLY if and when one HAS BELIEF. But, OBVIOUSLY NOT EVERY body has.

Everybody with neurologically evolved systems (brains and nervous systems), do have intrinsic beliefs, in the Reality of their sense-perceptions and experiences. Everybody believes, if they are tripped, then they will fall down. NOBODY believes, if they are tripped, they will not fall down.

Beliefs translate into physical expectations about life and existence.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am It doesn't need to be accurate—because most people don't know exactly how Gravity works.

Do you YET KNOW how gravity works?

I have ideas about how gravity works.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am But, everybody knows that it does work.

Is this like EVERY body KNOWS that 'trees' and 'wombats' DO WORK?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Thus the expectation is presumed, and its belief is derivative.

This is WHY I NEITHER BELIEVE NOR DISBELIEVE ANY 'thing', AND do NOT like to PRESUME NOR ASSUME ANY 'thing' ALSO.

You do...you're just not self-aware or self-conscious of yourself doing this.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Let's say a person, you, are aware of your own thoughts and beliefs.

Okay, but there HAS TO BELIEF existing FIRST, BEFORE one could be AWARE OF 'it/them'.

Also, are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that the term and phrase 'your own thoughts' is ACTUALLY True, Right, AND Correct?

If yes, then who and/or what is 'it', EXACTLY, which supposedly has 'its' OWN thoughts.

Yes, there has to be a belief, or as I just explained, a physical expectation about reality and the mechanical universe.

The reason why individuals believe in "their own" ideas, is because of unique experiences, and/or unique beliefs. For example, base animals and mammals, do not "believe in God". So humans technically 'own' the belief in God, since it is unique to humanity. Ownership means possession and entitlement...to those beliefs. It implies capability (to have them).

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am You know the difference between statements you would agree to, or disagree.

Do you KNOW the difference between statements you WOULD agree to?

If yes, would you like to share some of them?

If no, then WHY NOT?

I disagree with a lot of things. Just read my interactions with the clown-crew this last week.

Pay attention.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am This is easily demonstrated in every thread on this forum. People post and presume answers or responses to statements...then they accept or reject what another replies. You do this too.

Okay, if this is what you BELIEVE is true, then 'it' MUST BE true, correct?

Why do you imply that what I believe must automatically be true?

This is telling about your own mentality and presumptions.

My beliefs are not necessarily true nor false...until they are proven. Beliefs need to be applied directly to Reality.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Thirdly, you need to expand upon Biases of these beliefs and thoughts.

WHAT BELIEFS?

Are you NOT YET ABLE TO READ, and UNDERSTAND, what the words, 'I NEITHER BELIEVE NOR DISBELIEVE', MEANS?

Yes I understand...that you are wrong.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pmI do NOT necessarily HAVE TO DO 'this' AT ALL.

And, I do NOT do 'this', which partly explains WHY I ASK MORE QUESTIONS, FOR CLARITY, then MOST of 'you' here.

You have beliefs and presumptions.

For example, you belief you are "different" than others on this forum, that you are unique. This is, sometimes, false.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am and so the consequences of those true statements will resonate throughout the rest of its argument. Everybody has beliefs.

REALLY?

If yes, then what ARE the BELIEFS in new born bodies?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Everybody believes in the implications of statements.

What ABOUT the bodies that are said to be 'unconscious'?

Beliefs are held in memory while unconscious.

This is why people have dreams/nightmares.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Therefore everybody has biases, what their mind intuits as 'True' or 'False'.

'We' ARE WAITING to FIND OUT, through CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, whether those premises here are True, or False.

Also, could it be YOUR OWN 'biases', which have LED 'you' TO this CONCLUSION here, BEFORE the PROOF that the premises are even True has even been UNCOVERED?

Also, HOW, EXACTLY, do 'bodies' HAVE or POSSESS 'their minds', and what IS the ANSWER to the QUESTION, What are 'minds', EXACTLY?

"Mind" is symbolic representation of brains and nervous systems. When a group of people are conversing, dialoguing, debating, then it creates a "collective consciousness". This collective consciousness is usually conflated with what is a "mind" or "minds". So when the Religious-Right say "God's Mind", for example, they are also referencing the collective consciousness of the entire human race/specie.

Furthermore, my premises are severely scrutinized, which is why I have different truth/false values than you, and others.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Philosophy requires the suppression of these Biases.

But here you ARE SHOWING and EXPRESSING your OWN biases, and even CLAIMING that EVERY body has BELIEFS, and thus BIASES.

Would you even just like to 'TRY TO' suppress your OWN biases here?

Why do you imply that I'm not?

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Although you may presume little to be True—at least you still have some remaining and reserved Biases.

I found it to be FAR MORE REFRESHING to just REFRAIN from ASSUMING or PRESUMING ANY 'thing'.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am These must be identified, by yourself, and made aware.

YET you appear to be completely and utterly INCAPABLE of doing just 'this' "yourself".

That's simply not true.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am If you cannot become aware of your own biases, then they will be used against you, eventually, in Philosophical arenas and avenues.

But if one has ALREADY REMOVED ALL biases, by NOT believing NOR assuming 'things' here, then there is absolutely NOTHING that could be used AGAINST THAT one. Which is WHY you have NOT YET FOUND absolutely ANY 'thing' to use AGAINST me.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Because they expose the individuality of any Person.

Just the False, Wrong, Inaccurate, AND Incorrect thoughts and thinking in THAT body EXPOSE the INDIVIDUALITY, and the PERSON, WITHIN, TO 'us'.

You do not represent a 'we' or an 'us'. You represent you-yourself as an individual. You do not speak for others on this forum.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Clarity arrives when...after suppression of Confirmation-Bias, a person or individual wants to learn about the objective universe, or existence, beyond any possible subjective bias.

Which has ALREADY BEEN DONE, and which you have PROVEN NEVER being able TO DO, that is; if and while you KEEP CARRYING ON the WAY that you ARE here.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am In order to achieve this, oppositional perspectives and arguments must be heard out completely, before being disseminated and deconstructed. This means, inevitably, that other people hold oppositional beliefs, with oppositional "My Truth", and there is a supremacy of some ideas versus others.

you OBVIOUSLY NEED to LEARN how to distinguish between the TWO forms of 'truth' AND 'Truth' here.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Thus, some ideas are 'better', 'truer', 'superior' than others.

But I much prefer to just STAY WITH what IS ACTUALLY IRREFUTABLY True ALWAYS, and INSTEAD.

My mental clarity is quite apparently different to, from, than yours.

I believe others can easily tell the difference, especially given your socially awkward and atrocious manner of representing yourself.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am This is as easy as...being caught in front of a train, and "wishing away the existence of the train", denying it is there and coming...rather than moving out of the way. Some beliefs are better than others, at least in this example, when it comes to your immediate survival.

Are you STILL 'trying to' "justify" and "rationalize" your OWN BELIEF that you and EVERY one "ELSE" MUST BELIEVE 'things'?

Which, by the way, has been a GREAT example of the ACTUAL POWER of BELIEF, itself.

Ironic, isn't it?

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Believing in falsity and lies, or delusion, can...and do...cost people their lives.

Okay. AND BELIEVING in ALL DIFFERENT 'things' could, and does, cost people their lives.

Correct, and this includes you and your beliefs.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 amClarity of mind involves at least a few different functions.

First of all it requires self-awareness and self-consciousness.

If 'you' are, REALLY, self-aware, then who and/or what is that 'one', EXACTLY?

And, while 'we' are here, what the proper and correct answer to the question, 'Who am 'I'?'

Let us SEE just how 'self'-AWARE 'you' REALLY ARE.

Self-awareness is as simple as young children or infants recognizing themselves in a mirror.

So, are you suggesting here that you have NOT YET GROWN FROM a young child, or even AN INFANT, in that YOUR 'self-awareness' consists of recognizing a human body in a mirror?

See, True 'self-awareness' involves KNOWING who and what the 'self' IS, EXACTLY. And, going even FURTHER here, AFTER KNOWING who and what the 'self' IS, EXACTLY, there is STILL the QUESTION of, 'Who am 'I'?', which ONLY when one is FULLY 'Self-AWARE' the ANSWER could be and IS KNOWN.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am This happens at different ages, according to their individual intelligence & IQ.

you are FREE to REVEAL the views and thoughts WITHIN that body, and if these the views/thoughts that you want to SHARE with us, then that is all well and good.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am So this leads to the question: what is self?

Which I have ALREADY ANSWERED. AND, which I asked you above here, but which we are STILL WAITING for 'you' to ANSWER and CLARIFY.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am This means that organisms, such as Humans, and Mammals, and all other intellectually evolved animals, have sophisticated means of self-identification. When babies are born, they tend to gnaw on their own limbs, fingers, feet, and put anything they can grab into their mouths. This is a difference of what can be imbibed, as an extension of Self.

So, at the very least, you cannot and do not consume your "Self". Your body is then identified and separated, from others, by this basic, physical, physiological division.

Who and/or what is the 'your', which you SAY and CLAIM here OWNS or POSSESSES a body?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am You need to be aware of yourself, your thoughts, your beliefs, and your biases.

So, what was 'your' ANSWER to the QUESTION, 'Who am 'I'?'

Who are 'you', personally?

This is what I ASKED 'you' ABOVE here, which, AGAIN, 'we' are STILL WAITING 'your' ANSWER FOR.

If 'you' WERE Truly 'self-aware', then, SURELY, ANSWERING this QUESTION would be VERY EASY and SIMPLE for 'you', right?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am You are a person behind the Username "Age" on this philosophy forum.

Are you UNDER some sort of ILLUSION that 'this' was NOT ALREADY KNOWN?

WHY did 'you' 'this' here?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am It would be different I saw you face-to-face, heard your voice.

WHAT, EXACTLY, would be supposedly DIFFERENT?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am Instead, using textual exchange, I get to observe your logic, rationale, and beliefs.

BUT, one, OBVIOUSLY, would HAVE TO HAVE BELIEFS for "another" to be ABLE TO SEE them.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am So I identify you by this means.

AGAIN, WHO is the 'I' here, EXACTLY?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am Furthermore, your eccentric and over-exaggerated writing style, signals to me, a very Autistic/Asperger mindset.

OKAY.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am You are socially awkward, socially inept, perhaps lack the ability to empathize, or at least socialize with others.

OKAY. If 'this' is what 'you' BELIEVE, and/or WANT TO BELIEVE, then 'this' IS PERFECTLY FINE WITH 'me'.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am You likely have a weak or absent father figure in your life. You lack mental discipline.

HAHA ONCE AGAIN it appears that 'philosophy' and 'philosophy forums' are ABOUT LOOKING AT, JUDGING, and TALKING ABOUT "the other", and NOT ABOUT 'logical reasoning' NOR LOOKING AT and DISCUSSING 'ideas' and 'views'.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am In your case, personally, you've claimed that you "have no beliefs".

What the ACTUAL and FULL Truth IS here, EXACTLY, you are YET TO FIND OUT, UNDERSTAND, and KNOW.

But 'this' will do, for now.

No, it "will not do".

It WILL FOR me.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am You lied about having no beliefs.

DID I REALLY?

If yes, then WHERE and WHEN?

AND, WHAT was the ALLEGED and SUPPOSED LIE, EXACTLY?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am Or, you simply are unaware of the beliefs you do have.

MAYBE I AM.

AND, you CLAIM that you ARE AWARE of the BELIEFS, which I SUPPOSEDLY HAVE, so how about you NAMING 'them' so that ALL of us here can have a LOOK AT 'them'?

Or, if you do NOT do 'this', then what IS the ACTUAL REASON for this?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am You lack self-awareness, self-consciousness.

OKAY. But 'you' do NOT AT ALL, do 'you' "wizard22"?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am So you either lack intelligence (which I doubt), or more likely, you do not have self-conceptions, and therefore lack self-consciousness.

'you' like to CLAIM that 'you' KNOW a LOT, or MORE, ABOUT "others", right "wizard22"?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am You cannot...or will not...you refuse to imagine how others see and perceive you.

AND, 'you', "wizard22", could NOT POSSIBLY MISS SEEING, MISREADING, NOR MISINTERPRETING ANY 'thing' here, right?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am This is typical of Autists.

Could 'you' be 'seeing' 'things' based upon 'your' ALREADY OBTAINED and ALREADY BELIEVED BELIEFS here, and thus just PROVIDING 'us' with GREAT examples of 'confirmation bias' AT WORK? Or, could 'this' NEVER BE A POSSIBILITY here?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am This demonstrates lack of clarity.

Yes 'we' can AGREE WITH 'this'.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Everybody has beliefs.

So what are the BELIEFS that new born children have?

Newborn children believe that their senses are Real.

How do you KNOW what newborn children BELIEVE or do NOT BELIEVE?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am They have no reason (yet) to distrust their sense-perception.

But is there ANY reason to distrust the senses of the body?

If yes, then WHY do you DISTRUST the senses of that body?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am They have no reason to disbelieve in Reality.

Now you are just going way off-track, ONCE AGAIN, and FURTHER.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Because everybody has presumptions about mechanical operations of the world.

This is OBVIOUSLY False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and Incorrect.

It's True, Right, Accurate, and Correct.

OKAY, now I KNOW.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am For example, if somebody trips you, then you will fall. Your belief in Gravity, is given, by your expectation (to fall).

you are Wrong, AGAIN.

I am Right, AGAIN.

OKAY, we are GRATEFUL for you TELLING us what IS ACTUALLY True AND Right here.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Belief is directed toward the source of Causes.

ONLY if and when one HAS BELIEF. But, OBVIOUSLY NOT EVERY body has.

Everybody with neurologically evolved systems (brains and nervous systems), do have intrinsic beliefs, in the Reality of their sense-perceptions and experiences.

But you just TOLD us that 'you' DISTRUST 'your' OWN sense-perception, right?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am Everybody believes, if they are tripped, then they will fall down.

But have you NEVER seen a human body so-call 'trip' but NOT actually 'fall down'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am NOBODY believes, if they are tripped, they will not fall down.

HOW, EXACTLY, do you supposedly KNOW what EVERY so-called 'body' BELIEVES, and does NOT BELIEVE?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am Beliefs translate into physical expectations about life and existence.

REALLY?

Then this just provides MORE SUPPORT WHY it would be MUCH BETTER to NEITHER BELIEVE NOR DISBELIEVE ANY 'thing'. But PLEASE feel FREE to KEEP BELIEVING and DISBELIEVING whatever you so CHOOSE TO.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am It doesn't need to be accurate—because most people don't know exactly how Gravity works.

Do you YET KNOW how gravity works?

I have ideas about how gravity works.

But do you KNOW, EXACTLY, how gravity works?

Are 'you' like so-called 'most people' or NOT?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am But, everybody knows that it does work.

Is this like EVERY body KNOWS that 'trees' and 'wombats' DO WORK?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Thus the expectation is presumed, and its belief is derivative.

This is WHY I NEITHER BELIEVE NOR DISBELIEVE ANY 'thing', AND do NOT like to PRESUME NOR ASSUME ANY 'thing' ALSO.

You do...you're just not self-aware or self-conscious of yourself doing this.

So, what is 'it', EXACTLY, which I BELIEVE, DISBELIEVE, PRESUME, AND ASSUME?

your LIST here, or LACK OF, WILL BE quite REVEALING.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Let's say a person, you, are aware of your own thoughts and beliefs.

Okay, but there HAS TO BELIEF existing FIRST, BEFORE one could be AWARE OF 'it/them'.

Also, are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that the term and phrase 'your own thoughts' is ACTUALLY True, Right, AND Correct?

If yes, then who and/or what is 'it', EXACTLY, which supposedly has 'its' OWN thoughts.

Yes, there has to be a belief, or as I just explained, a physical expectation about reality and the mechanical universe.

WHY do you BELIEVE that there, ABSOLUTELY, HAS TO BE a 'physical expectation about reality and the mechanical universe'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am The reason why individuals believe in "their own" ideas, is because of unique experiences, and/or unique beliefs.

But considering I do NOT BELIEVE in my so-called 'own ideas', what would be the reason WHY this occurs?

Or, do you just BELIEVE otherwise?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am For example, base animals and mammals, do not "believe in God".

Do 'you', "wizard22", so-called 'believe in God'?

If yes, then okay.

But if no, then does this mean that you are NOT a so-called 'base animal nor mammal'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am So humans technically 'own' the belief in God, since it is unique to humanity.

So, 'you', human beings, technically, 'own' the 'individual belief', in 'your own ideas'.

Does this mean 'you' OWN 'the belief', FIRST, in 'your own idea/s', or do 'you' OWN your 'own idea/s' FIRST, which 'you' THEN BELIEVE IN?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am Ownership means possession and entitlement...to those beliefs.

And WHO, EXACTLY, is the one that OWNS or POSSESSES 'these ideas AND beliefs'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am It implies capability (to have them).

SO, if I CAN 'possess' ALL the money in 'the world', then I AM CAPABLE, to HAVE 'it' ALL, right?

Or, if I CAN have 'ownership' of 'a partner' and 'children', then I can POSSES and be ENTITLED TO 'them', correct?

Or, does this 'ownership', 'possession', 'entitlement', and 'capability' to HAVE 'things' here ONLY works FOR SOME 'things'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:00 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am You know the difference between statements you would agree to, or disagree.

Do you KNOW the difference between statements you WOULD agree to?

If yes, would you like to share some of them?

If no, then WHY NOT?

I disagree with a lot of things. Just read my interactions with the clown-crew this last week.

Pay attention.

SO, ONCE AGAIN, Do you KNOW the difference between statements you WOULD agree to?

If yes, would you like to share some of them?

If no, then WHY NOT?[

As can be CLEARLY SEEN here, ONCE AGAIN, the ACTUAL QUESTIONS, which I POSE, and ASK, here VERY VERY, RARELY get ANSWERED.

Which, LAUGHINGLY, IS CONTRARY to what these people BELIEVE, especially like this one here.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am This is easily demonstrated in every thread on this forum. People post and presume answers or responses to statements...then they accept or reject what another replies. You do this too.

Okay, if this is what you BELIEVE is true, then 'it' MUST BE true, correct?

Why do you imply that what I believe must automatically be true?

LOL I am NOT 'implying' this AT ALL. you ARE 'inferring' 'this', in case you WERE STILL UNAWARE.

I am ASKING you A(NOTHER) CLARIFYING QUESTION, which we ARE, ONCE AGAIN, AWAITING FOR you TO ANSWER.

If 'it' MUST NOT BE true, then ALL you have to do IS SAY SO. BUT, because you, AGAIN, will NOT ANSWER the ACTUAL QUESTION here, some might be wondering what you are SO SCARED OF here.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am This is telling about your own mentality and presumptions.

LOL What I AM ACTUALLY DOING is ASKING you a Truly STRAIGHTFORWARD QUESTION, from a Truly FULLY OPEN perspective.

IS what you BELIEVE is true, MUST BE true, or NOT?

SURELY even someone with YOUR 'in/capabilities' COULD just ANSWER this VERY SIMPLE QUESTION, right?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am My beliefs are not necessarily true nor false...until they are proven.

GREAT. We FINALLY got here.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am Beliefs need to be applied directly to Reality.

AND what do 'you' BASE 'Reality' ON, EXACTLY? Especially IF and WHEN 'you' can NOT even TRUST YOUR OWN 'sense-perception'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Thirdly, you need to expand upon Biases of these beliefs and thoughts.

WHAT BELIEFS?

Are you NOT YET ABLE TO READ, and UNDERSTAND, what the words, 'I NEITHER BELIEVE NOR DISBELIEVE', MEANS?

Yes I understand...that you are wrong.

BUT you CAN NOT, and thus WILL NOT provide ABSOLUTELY ANY 'thing' AT ALL to back up and support YOUR BELIEF here, and this is BECAUSE ABSOLUTELY NONE exists.

The ONLY 'thing' that exists here is YOUR OWN BELIEF, which you ALSO BELIEVE IS 100% ABSOLUTELY TRUE, RIGHT, AND CORRECT.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pmI do NOT necessarily HAVE TO DO 'this' AT ALL.

And, I do NOT do 'this', which partly explains WHY I ASK MORE QUESTIONS, FOR CLARITY, then MOST of 'you' here.

You have beliefs and presumptions.

you just KEEP RE-REPEATING the EXACT SAME 'things' here, BUT NEVER PROVIDE ABSOLUTELY ANY SUPPORTING and VALIDATING PROOF.

And, AGAIN, this is BECAUSE you have ABSOLUTELY NONE.

ALSO, I was REPLYING to YOUR CLAIM that - 'I MUST presume some statements and sentences are true'. HOWEVER, as I ALREADY PARTLY EXPLAINED, A reason WHY I ASK SO MANY MORE CLARIFYING QUESTIONS IS BECAUSE I do NOT 'presume' statements and sentences ARE true.

SEE, what I DO INSTEAD is WAIT, UNTIL I HAVE ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE PROOF, BEFORE I DECIDE UPON truthfulness or falseness.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am For example, you belief you are "different" than others on this forum, that you are unique. This is, sometimes, false.

1. I do NOT believe this.

2. WHY is it 'sometimes' FALSE that you are 'different' than "others" on this forum?

3. Are 'you' unique or NOT unique?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am and so the consequences of those true statements will resonate throughout the rest of its argument. Everybody has beliefs.

REALLY?

If yes, then what ARE the BELIEFS in new born bodies?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Everybody believes in the implications of statements.

What ABOUT the bodies that are said to be 'unconscious'?

Beliefs are held in memory while unconscious.

This is why people have dreams/nightmares.

What we can CLEARLY SEEN here IS the 'picking' AND 'choosing' of WHICH QUESTIONS to respond to, or NOT.

What happens if bodies are YET to OBTAIN 'memories'?

And, are there dreams/nightmares in UNCONSCIOUS human bodies or beings?

And are sleeping bodies or beings REALLY 'unconscious'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Therefore everybody has biases, what their mind intuits as 'True' or 'False'.

'We' ARE WAITING to FIND OUT, through CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, whether those premises here are True, or False.

Also, could it be YOUR OWN 'biases', which have LED 'you' TO this CONCLUSION here, BEFORE the PROOF that the premises are even True has even been UNCOVERED?

Also, HOW, EXACTLY, do 'bodies' HAVE or POSSESS 'their minds', and what IS the ANSWER to the QUESTION, What are 'minds', EXACTLY?

"Mind" is symbolic representation of brains and nervous systems.

Is 'this' what 'that word' DOES TO or FOR 'you'?

When you SEE or HEAR the word 'mind' do you ALWAYS gain a 'representation' of 'brains' AND 'nervous systems'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am When a group of people are conversing, dialoguing, debating, then it creates a "collective consciousness".

So what?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am This collective consciousness is usually conflated with what is a "mind" or "minds".

BUT 'you' NEVER 'conflate' ANY 'thing' here, right?

AND, what 'you' SAY and CLAIM IS 'the mind' is the One and ONLY True AND Right ANSWER also, correct?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am So when the Religious-Right say "God's Mind", for example, they are also referencing the collective consciousness of the entire human race/specie.

AND, what are the so-called 'religious-left' referencing, EXACTLY, when 'they' say, 'God's Mind'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am Furthermore, my premises are severely scrutinized, which is why I have different truth/false values than you, and others.

What do you mean by, 'your premises are severely scrutinized'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Philosophy requires the suppression of these Biases.

But here you ARE SHOWING and EXPRESSING your OWN biases, and even CLAIMING that EVERY body has BELIEFS, and thus BIASES.

Would you even just like to 'TRY TO' suppress your OWN biases here?

Why do you imply that I'm not?

AS I JUST SAID, and AS you JUST SHOWED, you are EXPRESSING, and thus SHOWING, your OWN 'biases' here.

SURE, you may well be SUPPRESSING SOME of YOUR BELIEFS and BIASES, but YOUR OTHER ONES can be VERY CLEARLY SEEN here.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Although you may presume little to be True—at least you still have some remaining and reserved Biases.

I found it to be FAR MORE REFRESHING to just REFRAIN from ASSUMING or PRESUMING ANY 'thing'.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am These must be identified, by yourself, and made aware.

YET you appear to be completely and utterly INCAPABLE of doing just 'this' "yourself".

That's simply not true.

WELL IDENTIFY, AND MAKE KNOWN, MY ALLEGED and CLAIMED PRESUMPTIONS.

Until you do, your words here are REALLY NOTHING AT ALL.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am If you cannot become aware of your own biases, then they will be used against you, eventually, in Philosophical arenas and avenues.

But if one has ALREADY REMOVED ALL biases, by NOT believing NOR assuming 'things' here, then there is absolutely NOTHING that could be used AGAINST THAT one. Which is WHY you have NOT YET FOUND absolutely ANY 'thing' to use AGAINST me.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Because they expose the individuality of any Person.

Just the False, Wrong, Inaccurate, AND Incorrect thoughts and thinking in THAT body EXPOSE the INDIVIDUALITY, and the PERSON, WITHIN, TO 'us'.

You do not represent a 'we' or an 'us'. You represent you-yourself as an individual. You do not speak for others on this forum.

OKAY. But it is NOT 'I' who has said OTHERWISE.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:50 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Clarity arrives when...after suppression of Confirmation-Bias, a person or individual wants to learn about the objective universe, or existence, beyond any possible subjective bias.

Which has ALREADY BEEN DONE, and which you have PROVEN NEVER being able TO DO, that is; if and while you KEEP CARRYING ON the WAY that you ARE here.

In order to achieve this, oppositional perspectives and arguments must be heard out completely, before being disseminated and deconstructed.

And I STILL WAIT for you to SHOW COMPLETELY the ACTUAL 'things' that you USE for YOUR CLAIMS here.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:10 am This means, inevitably, that other people hold oppositional beliefs, with oppositional "My Truth", and there is a supremacy of some ideas versus others.

My mental clarity is quite apparently different to, from, than yours.

The way 'you' 'constructed' this sentence seems to SHOW, CLEARLY.

Also, I would NEVER DISAGREE that 'your' OWN so-called 'mental clarity' is VERY DIFFERENT than MINE.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am I believe others can easily tell the difference, especially given your socially awkward and atrocious manner of representing yourself.

And, YOUR BELIEFS, and BIASES, here, are VERY CLEAR.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am
Ironic, isn't it?

YES.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:04 am Correct, and this includes you and your beliefs.

AND, ONCE MORE, WHAT THESE 'beliefs' OF MINE, which 'you' CONTINUALLY KEEP RE-REPEATING I HAVE, but which 'you' NEVER PROVIDE ABSOLUTELY ANY 'evidence' for, let alone ANY 'proof' for?

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:46 amSo, are you suggesting here that you have NOT YET GROWN FROM a young child, or even AN INFANT, in that YOUR 'self-awareness' consists of recognizing a human body in a mirror?

I'm wasting my time trying to rationalize anything to you...aren't I?

I'm beginning to think you're not half as intelligent as I originally thought you were.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 11:16 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:46 amSo, are you suggesting here that you have NOT YET GROWN FROM a young child, or even AN INFANT, in that YOUR 'self-awareness' consists of recognizing a human body in a mirror?

I'm wasting my time trying to rationalize anything to you...aren't I?

It appears SO. But this is just BECAUSE you would have to SAY some 'thing' that COULD BE 'rational', and so far that has be VERY LITTLE of 'that'.

you OBVIOUSLY appear Truly INCAPABLE of being ABLE TO back up and support YOUR CLAIMS, ELABORATE on what you have ALREADY SAID, and to just ANSWER the CLARIFYING QUESTIONS POSED and ASKED, TO you. Therefore, it would VERY STRONGLY appear that you REALLY ARE Truly WASTING 'your time' by just REPEATING 'your OWN BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS' over and over again.

In case you ARE STILL UNAWARE you can NOT, REALLY, 'rationalize' ANY 'thing' that way.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 11:16 am I'm beginning to think you're not half as intelligent as I originally thought you were.

OKAY.

you are ABSOLUTELY FREE to think or BELIEVE whatever you like.

Oh, and by the way, HOW intelligent did you think I WAS, originally?

I mean, if you can't figure out self-awareness in young children, then there's not much hope for you.

That's fine, really. Most humans are neither self-aware nor self-conscious anyway. It fits your IQ level. Your mind cannot understand rationalizations beyond a certain point.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 11:16 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:46 amSo, are you suggesting here that you have NOT YET GROWN FROM a young child, or even AN INFANT, in that YOUR 'self-awareness' consists of recognizing a human body in a mirror?

I'm wasting my time trying to rationalize anything to you...aren't I?

I'm beginning to think you're not half as intelligent as I originally thought you were.

If you must even read Age’s posts, that’s OK, but answering him only encourages him.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 1:32 pmIf you must even read Age’s posts, that’s OK, but answering him only encourages him.

I was mistaken to believe he could understand the simpler points.

Lesson learned. I'll add more on-topic material to the thread later.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 12:19 pm I mean, if you can't figure out self-awareness in young children, then there's not much hope for you.

That's fine, really. Most humans are neither self-aware nor self-conscious anyway. It fits your IQ level. Your mind cannot understand rationalizations beyond a certain point.

Okay.

But there is NOT one word I have SAID and WRITTEN here that you have ACTUALLY PRODUCED and USED to VERIFY your CLAIM here.

The reason for this IS BECAUSE there is NOT ONE.

The ONLY 'thing' that you are USING here, to "justify" and "rationalize" your OWN CLAIMS, are the ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS WITHIN 'that head'.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 1:32 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 11:16 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:46 amSo, are you suggesting here that you have NOT YET GROWN FROM a young child, or even AN INFANT, in that YOUR 'self-awareness' consists of recognizing a human body in a mirror?

I'm wasting my time trying to rationalize anything to you...aren't I?

I'm beginning to think you're not half as intelligent as I originally thought you were.

If you must even read Age’s posts, that’s OK, but answering him only encourages him.

AND, if one HAS NOT YET READ what I have SAID and WRITTEN, then, OBVIOUSLY, they do NOT KNOW what IS GOING ON here.

See, what people like "wizard22" DO is WRITE the words that 'it' DOES, which, from an OUTSIDE perspective, would LOOK LIKE 'it' KNOWS what 'it' IS SAYING and CLAIMING. BUT, on FURTHER and DEEPER INSPECTION what can be CLEARLY SEEN is that it can NOT PRODUCE ABSOLUTELY ANY 'thing' that ACTUALLY backs up and supports what 'it' SAYS and CLAIMS.

Although I have REPEATEDLY QUESTIONED and CHALLENGED "wizard22" on 'its' BELIEFS and CLAIMS, and of which EVERY TIME 'it' FAILS, ABSOLUTELY, 'it' STILL BELIEVES that 'it' IS SMARTER and WISER than ALL who DISAGREE WITH 'it'.

BUT BELIEVING, and PROVING, A 'thing' are TWO VERY DIFFERENT 'things'.