Philosophy Now Forum

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 3:43 pm That means that there is another conscious agent who resides inside my brain. A set of neurons could not do that.

This happens all the time.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 3:58 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 3:43 pm That means that there is another conscious agent who resides inside my brain. A set of neurons could not do that.

This happens all the time.

How this is done? How could you disprove the existence of spirituality? I once had out of body experience. I was as tall as a three-story building. I could see the top of other buildings.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:27 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 3:58 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 3:43 pm That means that there is another conscious agent who resides inside my brain. A set of neurons could not do that.

This happens all the time.

How this is done? How could you disprove the existence of spirituality? I once had out of body experience. I was as tall as a three-story building. I could see the top of other buildings.

And once I could fly across different realities. I experienced that in my head. So what?

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:28 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:27 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 3:58 pm
This happens all the time.

How this is done? How could you disprove the existence of spirituality? I once had out of body experience. I was as tall as a three-story building. I could see the top of other buildings.

And once I could fly across different realities. I experienced that in my head. So what?

Could you please answer the first and second questions? I think that answers your question.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:32 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:28 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:27 pm
How this is done? How could you disprove the existence of spirituality? I once had out of body experience. I was as tall as a three-story building. I could see the top of other buildings.

And once I could fly across different realities. I experienced that in my head. So what?

Could you please answer the first and second questions? I think that answers your question.

What do you mean? You experienced in your head that you were as tall as a three-story building, but you were just imagining it. I'm asking so what?

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:35 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:32 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:28 pm
And once I could fly across different realities. I experienced that in my head. So what?

Could you please answer the first and second questions? I think that answers your question.

What do you mean? You experienced in your head that you were as tall as a three-story building, but you were just imagining it. I'm asking so what?

I mean, I could see the top of other buildings. How that is possible? Moreover, you didn't answer my questions. Could you please do that?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:39 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:35 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:32 pm
Could you please answer the first and second questions? I think that answers your question.

What do you mean? You experienced in your head that you were as tall as a three-story building, but you were just imagining it. I'm asking so what?

I mean, I could see the top of other buildings. How that is possible? Moreover, you didn't answer my questions. Could you please do that?

You were imagining that too, perhaps you recalled a memory of actual rooftops. If I knew what the question is I might be able to answer it.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:27 pm How this is done?

Ah you mean this. You have schizophrenia where your brain/mind has splintered into 2 or more parts, and some other fragment you're communicating with seems to be the external world from "your" perspective.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:42 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:39 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:35 pm
What do you mean? You experienced in your head that you were as tall as a three-story building, but you were just imagining it. I'm asking so what?

I mean, I could see the top of other buildings. How that is possible? Moreover, you didn't answer my questions. Could you please do that?

You were imagining that too, perhaps you recalled a memory of actual rooftops. If I knew what the question is I might be able to answer it.

No, I didn't have a memory of rooftops. I have never been on top of those buildings.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:54 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:42 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:39 pm
I mean, I could see the top of other buildings. How that is possible? Moreover, you didn't answer my questions. Could you please do that?

You were imagining that too, perhaps you recalled a memory of actual rooftops. If I knew what the question is I might be able to answer it.

No, I didn't have a memory of rooftops. I have never been on top of those buildings.

But you saw them on movies etc. duh.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:47 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:27 pm How this is done?

Ah you mean this. You have schizophrenia where your brain/mind has splintered into 2 or more parts, and some other fragment you're communicating with seems to be the external world from "your" perspective.

Yes. Schizophrenia and splintered brain are what people suggest. But doesn't the whole brain is needed for a human to function well? How does a small or half of the brain play the role of an intelligent agent? Why they are playing the role of evil given me the false vision, voice, etc?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:03 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:47 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:27 pm How this is done?

Ah you mean this. You have schizophrenia where your brain/mind has splintered into 2 or more parts, and some other fragment you're communicating with seems to be the external world from "your" perspective.

Yes. Schizophrenia and splintered brain are what people suggest. But doesn't the whole brain is needed for a human to function well? How does a small or half of the brain play the role of an intelligent agent? Why they are playing the role of evil given me the false vision, voice, etc?

Excuse me for being blunt, but I'm just telling it how I think it is (and I'm fairly sure). You are only a partial and distorted human mind, and the parts you are based on are overused, and you don't function very well. How I think it usually happens is that you're more like based in the neocortex and are an empathetic being, but the other one in your head is more centered around the brainstem and is more like a psychopath, so it will screw with you.

I think psychopathy is sort of a failsafe mechanism, a secondary "being" that's usually completely dormant, but can take over when the frontal lobes get damaged. But in schizophrenia there is no frontal lobe damage but other damages, and both the frontal-lobe being (you) and the psychopathic being can be active at the same time.

Best course of action for you may be to try to destroy this other being, and then re-assimilate the brain/mind parts it was using. Schizophrenia is often caused by brain inflammation in my non-big-pharma opinion btw, and the most common cause of that seems to be food allergies so you could also take a food allergy test imo.

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:12 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:03 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:47 pm
Ah you mean this. You have schizophrenia where your brain/mind has splintered into 2 or more parts, and some other fragment you're communicating with seems to be the external world from "your" perspective.

Yes. Schizophrenia and splintered brain are what people suggest. But doesn't the whole brain is needed for a human to function well? How does a small or half of the brain play the role of an intelligent agent? Why they are playing the role of evil given me the false vision, voice, etc?

Excuse me for being blunt, but I'm just telling it how I think it is (and I'm fairly sure). You are only a partial and distorted human mind, and the parts you are based on are overused, and you don't function very well. How I think it usually happens is that you're more like based in the neocortex and are an empathetic being, but the other one in your head is more centered around the brainstem and is more like a psychopath, so it will screw with you.

I think psychopathy is sort of a failsafe mechanism, a secondary "being" that's usually completely dormant, but can take over when the frontal lobes get damaged. But in schizophrenia there is no frontal lobe damage but other damages, and both the frontal-lobe being (you) and the psychopathic being can be active at the same time.

Best course of action for you may be to try to destroy this other being, and then re-assimilate the brain/mind parts it was using. Schizophrenia is often caused by brain inflammation in my non-big-pharma opinion btw, and the most common cause of that seems to be food allergies so you could also take a food allergy test imo.

Thanks for the elaboration. I was aware of a part of me that functions separately. Your explanation however does not disprove spirituality. I cannot prove it either. We have to wait and see.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 7:27 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:12 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:03 pm
Yes. Schizophrenia and splintered brain are what people suggest. But doesn't the whole brain is needed for a human to function well? How does a small or half of the brain play the role of an intelligent agent? Why they are playing the role of evil given me the false vision, voice, etc?

Excuse me for being blunt, but I'm just telling it how I think it is (and I'm fairly sure). You are only a partial and distorted human mind, and the parts you are based on are overused, and you don't function very well. How I think it usually happens is that you're more like based in the neocortex and are an empathetic being, but the other one in your head is more centered around the brainstem and is more like a psychopath, so it will screw with you.

I think psychopathy is sort of a failsafe mechanism, a secondary "being" that's usually completely dormant, but can take over when the frontal lobes get damaged. But in schizophrenia there is no frontal lobe damage but other damages, and both the frontal-lobe being (you) and the psychopathic being can be active at the same time.

Best course of action for you may be to try to destroy this other being, and then re-assimilate the brain/mind parts it was using. Schizophrenia is often caused by brain inflammation in my non-big-pharma opinion btw, and the most common cause of that seems to be food allergies so you could also take a food allergy test imo.

Thanks for the elaboration. I was aware of a part of me that functions separately. Your explanation however does not disprove spirituality. I cannot prove it either. We have to wait and see.

I don't even know what you mean by spirituality. Also, we can never prove a negative. My explanation shows that, throughout human history, people who thought they talked to God probably simply talked to another part of themselves.

If there's real spirituality, it may probably be of a much higher form than this.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 3:43 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:57 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 1:12 pm No, your argument is not valid. The fact that science does not deal with the supernatural does not mean that the supernatural is not real. It just simply means that you cannot validate or invalidate supernatural using science.

The argument is valid, i.e. deductively logically.

No, it is not valid. You have to change P2 yet you have to show that P2 is correct.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:00 am What you are refuting is the argument is not sound. Note the difference between valid and sound.

No. Your argument is neither valid nor sound.

My argument is modus tollens, i.e.
If P, then Q. Not Q. Therefore, not P."
We will leave it at that.

I have to justify why P1 is true.
I have done that here;
Two Senses of Reality
viewtopic.php?t=40265

As for P2, you agreed God and Soul are not covered within the ambit of Science.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:00 am You are actually arguing my P1 is not true.
P1. What exist as most real is verifiable "ONLY" by the scientific FSR-FSK.

What you are insisting is there are other models [FSR-FSK] that can verify what exist as real or most real.

I have asked you, what other models [FSR-FSK] other than science can verify what is most real?
You have not provided any credible answers to my question.
You mentioned 'mathematics' and 'logic' which is not relevant.

You are not relying on your first-person-experience [highly subjective] as the most reliable model to verify what is really real. This is not possible because what is highly subjective cannot be objectively real.

Si,
P1. What exist as most real is verifiable [ONLY] by the scientific FSR-FSK.

Prove my P1 is wrong, then I will agree my argument whilst valid is not sound.

We have been through this. Logic, spirituality, and theology are other sources of knowing the truth. Moreover, that is you who should prove that P1 is correct.

Logic, spirituality, and theology are other sources of knowing the truth, but that is only within their specific model or Framework and System of Reality [FSR].
But what is true within the specific model or FSR may not be really-REAL.
To verify and verified what is true is really-real we need specific model or Framework and System of Reality [FSR].

The ONLY* [or the most realistic] FSK to verify and justify what is really-REAL is the human-based scientific FSR-FSK subject to its weaknesses and limitations. There is no better FSR at present to verify what is really-real.
* definitely not in the Scientism sense.

I have justified P1 here;
Two Senses of Reality
viewtopic.php?t=40265

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:00 am

I knew that any sort of spiritual experience is due to brain activity since I experience something other people don't see. But that does not mean that such a brain activity does not have a cause. I cannot fool myself given the fact that I am my brain!

It definitely has a cause, i.e. Neuro-psychologically. When certain sets of neuron are triggered, they generate a sense of spirituality leading to a sensing of God, e.g.

Israeli doctors watch epileptic’s brain while he ‘sees God’
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-s ... -epilepsy/

As I believe, in your case, it could be due to mild Temporal Epilepsy which is evident and supported by tons of research.

Otherwise, you believe God tweaked your [the chosen ones] brain to make you see or experience God?

See this thread;
Listing of Causes in Experiencing God
viewtopic.php?t=40346
It is more likely that your experience of God is from one of the listed causes [all verifiable by the scienfific FSK], than insisting God exists as really real without proofs.

As I mentioned, my experiences are coherent. I talk with them like other human beings. Given the fact that I am my brain, I cannot fool myself being not aware of what I am doing. This sort of experience has a cause that could not be me or my brain. They just see neural activity when there is such an experience.
What you are suggesting is that a set of neurons play evil trying to fool me. That means that there is another conscious agent who resides inside my brain. A set of neurons could not do that.

The idea of an evil demon [or homunculus] fooling you would be a strawman.

The fact is evolution is lying to humans to ensure they survive to ensure the preservation of the species and life, e.g. the larger Sun at sunset is to facilitate survival, the same color is darker in the shade or a snake for a piece of rope are also illusions to facilitate survival, and many other illusions are necessary to facilitate survival.

Truth vs Reality: How we evolved to survive, not to see what’s really there | Donald Hoffman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SL-j1XoDms&t=682s

In all humans there is a certain set of neurons that are necessary to facilitate survival but and in your case [& the like], is deviated to deceive you to believe in a God that is real when there is such real God at all in reality.
The deception by evolution of the idea of God as real [actually an illusion] is the most critical deception and critically necessary to facilitate survival for the majority. There is no better and immediate alternative to theism for the majority.