Philosophy Now Forum

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:02 am What you BELIEVE is true does NOT FIT IN WITH or WORK IN WITH what is ACTUALLY True.

Truth/fact is experience-dependent and is not infallible,

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:02 amIs what you just said and claimed here also fallible? If yes, then maybe you would like to reconsider YOUR CLAIM here.

The first stage of the process of discernment is perception, and if perception is faulty due to one's biology, the correction of that judgement is also experience/perception dependent. Biology is the measure and meaning of all things. "To error is to be human."

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am A collective subjective judgement of an experience is somewhat more likely to be correct, but again, even the collective judgment is not infallible.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am Despite the dangers, we trust, as we must, our own perceptions in general, as not to do so would mean to be frozen in indecision, and unable to function properly in the world.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:02 amOr, are you 'trying to' CLAIM that what you just said and claimed here is infallible?
If yes, then I really hope you can SEE the CONTRADICTION and HYPOCRISY here.

You are I believe misreading; I stated the perception/experience and judgment are NOT infallible. Meaning they are all subject to human error.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:02 amAND, what IS the 'truth/fact' of or about 'physical reality' based on, EXACTLY, if NOT 'dependent upon experience'?
Also, HOW would one EVER KNOW if expressed 'truths/facts' AGREED with 'physical reality', or NOT?
And, what about 'non-physical reality', does that even exist?

Physical reality is what biology tells you it is, but again this is NOT perfect, in the cases of delusion, the delusion may be due to the limitations or malfunctions of said biology whether that be perception or judgment.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:52 am This is true whether it is individual truth/fact or truth of the group or collective judgment.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:52 am What is actually true as fact, is often not believed; if it does not agree with one's perception or preconceived bias.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am
Not infallible means subject to error.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:02 am But what IS ACTUALLY true as fact?
Will you provide some examples?
And, what, EXACTLY, makes up 'what IS ACTUALLY true as fact'?

What is actually true as a fact is, that one's perception/experience and judgment coincide with physical reality.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am I am a little puzzled here, you have questioned absolutely everything stated and while it might be good for me to sharpen my thoughts in answering every detail; it makes me wonder if you understood anything from the original post.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:54 am There is no such thing as independent existence so the question is, free of what?

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:22 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:54 am There is no such thing as independent existence so the question is, free of what?

What is the Universe, Itself, then dependent upon?

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:22 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:54 am There is no such thing as independent existence so the question is, free of what?

What is the Universe, Itself, then dependent upon?

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:22 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:54 am There is no such thing as independent existence so the question is, free of what?

What is the Universe, Itself, then dependent upon?

If your metaphysical stance is idealism(immaterialism)

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am then the universe of stars and space and so forth depends for its existence on human imagination and creativity.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am It may then be asked "But is there nothing actually 'out there' at all?"

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am The idealist would reply that 'out there' beyond human creativity is possibility which is chaotic.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:22 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:54 am There is no such thing as independent existence so the question is, free of what?

What is the Universe, Itself, then dependent upon?

If your metaphysical stance is idealism(immaterialism) then the universe of stars and space and so forth depends for its existence on human imagination and creativity.
It may then be asked "But is there nothing actually 'out there' at all?" The idealist would reply that 'out there' beyond human creativity is possibility which is chaotic.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:32 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:02 am What you BELIEVE is true does NOT FIT IN WITH or WORK IN WITH what is ACTUALLY True.

Truth/fact is experience-dependent and is not infallible,

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:02 amIs what you just said and claimed here also fallible? If yes, then maybe you would like to reconsider YOUR CLAIM here.

The first stage of the process of discernment is perception, and if perception is faulty due to one's biology, the correction of that judgement is also experience/perception dependent. Biology is the measure and meaning of all things. "To error is to be human."

To KEEP CLAIMING, 'To error is to be human', is TO KEEP 'trying to' "justify" NEVER to DO BETTER.

Also, is there ANY animal that does NOT 'error'?

If no, then it is just a Fact that 'you', human beings, MAKE 'errors'. But, SO WHAT? I, for One, NEVER EXPECT ANY 'thing' ELSE.

And, for one to say, 'To error is to be human', alludes to there being some PRESUMPTION within that one that human beings will NOT make 'errors'.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am A collective subjective judgement of an experience is somewhat more likely to be correct, but again, even the collective judgment is not infallible.

See, even this CLAIM is just ANOTHER ERROR, which MAKES 'you', MORE human, right?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am Despite the dangers, we trust, as we must, our own perceptions in general, as not to do so would mean to be frozen in indecision, and unable to function properly in the world.

Here we have HAD ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of DEFLECTION, in one of its BETTER ATTEMPTS.

But it is NOT WORKING. Did you SEE and READ the ACTUAL QUESTION I posed, and asked you, for CLARITY, above here?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:02 amOr, are you 'trying to' CLAIM that what you just said and claimed here is infallible?
If yes, then I really hope you can SEE the CONTRADICTION and HYPOCRISY here.

You are I believe misreading; I stated the perception/experience and judgment are NOT infallible. Meaning they are all subject to human error.

GREAT. This is EXACTLY HOW I WAS READING 'you'.

AND, what this MEANS IS that absolutely EVERY 'thing' that you have WRITTEN and SAID here could be Wrong and/or IN ERROR, correct?

Or, can 'you' NOT be Wrong NOR IN ERROR here?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:02 amAND, what IS the 'truth/fact' of or about 'physical reality' based on, EXACTLY, if NOT 'dependent upon experience'?
Also, HOW would one EVER KNOW if expressed 'truths/facts' AGREED with 'physical reality', or NOT?
And, what about 'non-physical reality', does that even exist?

Physical reality is what biology tells you it is, but again this is NOT perfect, in the cases of delusion, the delusion may be due to the limitations or malfunctions of said biology whether that be perception or judgment.

Okay, this, somewhat PARTLY answers the last question of mine, but what about the first two questions I asked you?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:52 am This is true whether it is individual truth/fact or truth of the group or collective judgment.

BUT, you just got through TELLING us that 'truth/fact' is 'experience-dependent' and is NOT infallible. So, HOW do we KNOW that what you say 'is true', which IS 'experience-dependent' upon YOUR OWN past 'experience' is NOT infallible ALSO?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:52 am What is actually true as fact, is often not believed; if it does not agree with one's perception or preconceived bias.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am
Not infallible means subject to error.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:02 am But what IS ACTUALLY true as fact?
Will you provide some examples?
And, what, EXACTLY, makes up 'what IS ACTUALLY true as fact'?

What is actually true as a fact is, that one's perception/experience and judgment coincide with physical reality.

BUT I HAVE ALREADY ASKED you TO CLARIFY, ' HOW would one EVER KNOW if expressed 'truths/facts' AGREED with 'physical reality', or NOT?', but which you did NOT ANSWER.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am I am a little puzzled here, you have questioned absolutely everything stated and while it might be good for me to sharpen my thoughts in answering every detail; it makes me wonder if you understood anything from the original post.

you can only ATTEMPT TO DEFLECT SO MUCH, BEFORE it BECOMES COMPLETELY OBVIOUS to "others" and eventually to EVERY one.

I suggest READING my responses, and QUESTIONS AGAIN, then SEEING HOW MUCH I Truly UNDERSTAND WILL BECOME CLEARER. And the MORE you READ, and LOOK from a Truly OPEN perspective, then the MORE you WILL SEE in regards to MY UNDERSTANDING here.

Also, I suggest quoting this response of yours CORRECTLY, and REWRITING this response again, then MAYBE you will SEE WHO is NOT UNDERSTANDING WHO here.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:47 pm

Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:32 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Truth/fact is experience-dependent and is not infallible,

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

The first stage of the process of discernment is perception, and if perception is faulty due to one's biology, the correction of that judgement is also experience/perception dependent. Biology is the measure and meaning of all things. "To error is to be human."

To KEEP CLAIMING, 'To error is to be human', is TO KEEP 'trying to' "justify" NEVER to DO BETTER.

Also, is there ANY animal that does NOT 'error'?

If no, then it is just a Fact that 'you', human beings, MAKE 'errors'. But, SO WHAT? I, for One, NEVER EXPECT ANY 'thing' ELSE.

And, for one to say, 'To error is to be human', alludes to there being some PRESUMPTION within that one that human beings will NOT make 'errors'.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am A collective subjective judgement of an experience is somewhat more likely to be correct, but again, even the collective judgment is not infallible.

See, even this CLAIM is just ANOTHER ERROR, which MAKES 'you', MORE human, right?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am Despite the dangers, we trust, as we must, our own perceptions in general, as not to do so would mean to be frozen in indecision, and unable to function properly in the world.

Here we have HAD ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE of DEFLECTION, in one of its BETTER ATTEMPTS.

But it is NOT WORKING. Did you SEE and READ the ACTUAL QUESTION I posed, and asked you, for CLARITY, above here?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

You are I believe misreading; I stated the perception/experience and judgment are NOT infallible. Meaning they are all subject to human error.

GREAT. This is EXACTLY HOW I WAS READING 'you'.

AND, what this MEANS IS that absolutely EVERY 'thing' that you have WRITTEN and SAID here could be Wrong and/or IN ERROR, correct?

Or, can 'you' NOT be Wrong NOR IN ERROR here?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

Physical reality is what biology tells you it is, but again this is NOT perfect, in the cases of delusion, the delusion may be due to the limitations or malfunctions of said biology whether that be perception or judgment.

Okay, this, somewhat PARTLY answers the last question of mine, but what about the first two questions I asked you?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:52 am This is true whether it is individual truth/fact or truth of the group or collective judgment.

BUT, you just got through TELLING us that 'truth/fact' is 'experience-dependent' and is NOT infallible. So, HOW do we KNOW that what you say 'is true', which IS 'experience-dependent' upon YOUR OWN past 'experience' is NOT infallible ALSO?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:52 am What is actually true as fact, is often not believed; if it does not agree with one's perception or preconceived bias.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am
Not infallible means subject to error.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am

What is actually true as a fact is, that one's perception/experience and judgment coincide with physical reality.

BUT I HAVE ALREADY ASKED you TO CLARIFY, ' HOW would one EVER KNOW if expressed 'truths/facts' AGREED with 'physical reality', or NOT?', but which you did NOT ANSWER.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:25 am I am a little puzzled here, you have questioned absolutely everything stated and while it might be good for me to sharpen my thoughts in answering every detail; it makes me wonder if you understood anything from the original post.

you can only ATTEMPT TO DEFLECT SO MUCH, BEFORE it BECOMES COMPLETELY OBVIOUS to "others" and eventually to EVERY one.

I suggest READING my responses, and QUESTIONS AGAIN, then SEEING HOW MUCH I Truly UNDERSTAND WILL BECOME CLEARER. And the MORE you READ, and LOOK from a Truly OPEN perspective, then the MORE you WILL SEE in regards to MY UNDERSTANDING here.

Also, I suggest quoting this response of yours CORRECTLY, and REWRITING this response again, then MAYBE you will SEE WHO is NOT UNDERSTANDING WHO here.

The Universe depends on human creativity and imagination.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:03 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:22 am

What is the Universe, Itself, then dependent upon?

If your metaphysical stance is idealism(immaterialism) then the universe of stars and space and so forth depends for its existence on human imagination and creativity.
It may then be asked "But is there nothing actually 'out there' at all?" The idealist would reply that 'out there' beyond human creativity is possibility which is chaotic.

Belinda,
EXCELLENT!!

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:23 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:03 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am

If your metaphysical stance is idealism(immaterialism) then the universe of stars and space and so forth depends for its existence on human imagination and creativity.
It may then be asked "But is there nothing actually 'out there' at all?" The idealist would reply that 'out there' beyond human creativity is possibility which is chaotic.

Belinda,
EXCELLENT!!

But it does NOT, REALLY, matter what ANY one of 'you', human beings, reply with, if what 'you' reply with is False or Wrong, like above here. What REALLY matters is what IS IRREFUTABLY True and Right.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:25 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:23 pm

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:03 pm

Belinda,
EXCELLENT!!

But it does NOT, REALLY, matter what ANY one of 'you', human beings, reply with, if what 'you' reply with is False or Wrong, like above here. What REALLY matters is what IS IRREFUTABLY True and Right.

Absolute empirical truth is an attribute of God's, not human knowledge

Age wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:18 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:25 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:23 pm

But it does NOT, REALLY, matter what ANY one of 'you', human beings, reply with, if what 'you' reply with is False or Wrong, like above here. What REALLY matters is what IS IRREFUTABLY True and Right.

Absolute empirical truth is an attribute of God's, not human knowledge

What is this God 'Thing', which you SAY and CLAIM here HAS 'knowledge'?

And, is the 'knowledge' that 'you', a human being, just wrote here 'God's' knowledge OR 'human's' knowledge?

Also, will you provide example/s of this so-called 'absolute empirical truth', which is supposedly an attribute of this God 'Things' knowledge, and NOT 'human knowledge'?

Furthermore, HOW, EXACTLY, does one like 'you', human beings, DIFFERENTIATE, EXACTLY, between 'God's knowledge' and 'human knowledge'?

For example, Could the 'knowledge' that there IS 'God's knowledge' just be 'human knowledge', which is somehow CONFUSED in SOME WAY? Or, is this NOT a POSSIBILITY in the 'knowledge' that comes FROM the human being known here as "belinda"?