Philosophy Now Forum

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:45 am I have no problem with abortion clinics providing all that information. Why not campaign for that instead of campaigning for what could potentially end up as its abolishment?

Well, because abortion is murder. That's a pretty good reason.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:32 amWhen do you think the Supreme Court will impose stricter gun control laws? I mean does anyone really need an AR-15?

Personally? I don't. But I don't begrudge anyone else having one, since I know there are WAAAAAY worse guns out there. But i don't think SCOTUS will rule for more gun control for two reasons: one, while the constitution says nothing about abortion, it does about gun ownership; but two, gun control doesn't work. I assume they're smart enough to know that.

I live in an area with exceedingly tight gun control laws. Most people do not own one at all...even a hunting rifle. Still, in my area, most crimes are committed with handguns...which are totally restricted weapons, that require a special permit, a full and comprehensive police check, and cannot even be moved between locations except under special circumstances. But all those laws have only cramped law-abiding folks. The criminals sail merrily along.

So there has to be a better solution than just making more laws that we already know don't work. If anybody's serious about getting guns out of the hands of criminals, they're going to have to do something real, not just another symbolic gesture. And for me, that's probably meaning much, much tougher sentences for criminals. It's also going to mean cleaning up the crime areas, where these guns are a status symbol and a tool of the criminal underclass.

Right now, the laws aren't even making a dent -- and as I say, the gun laws here are much tougher than where you are, by a long, long shot. We can't even own most weapons you might find in a Dick's Sporting Goods in the US.

However, back to abortion: guns are a totally different issue.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:47 pm If any government says you can murder your babies, then that government is doing evil. Period.

Then humanity is an evil force of nature, because many people have participated in doing evil, as far as abortion is concerned.

Also, anyone who intentionally kills others using a gun and then turns the gun on themself has also murdered themself.
Who is to be accountable for these murders?...no one.

Whatever you believe about the evil ways of nature, there is absolutely no credible evidence that those responsible for evil will ever be held accountable by anything other than another human being judging their actions as evil and then punishing them by killing them physically or killing them by locking them away in jail for the rest of their lives....yeah, sounds like nature if such a bitch and then you die.

The belief in God's wrath against evil doing, is over and over again proved to be a lie...because according to mans judgement, evil is still a belief to date.... in that the evil hasn't changed for the better...To date, there is a blatant and blinding physical evidence of an absent non-show of God's wrath upon the wicked. That's the truth and the reality that believers fail to accept, in their fear, they would rather cling to their belief even without any physical evidence of it being right, than succumb to a life that in reality has no ultimate meaning or purpose, and that it is just a mindless meat grinder.

The non-showing up of God's punishment is in realtime all the physical evidence one needs to know that the belief in God's wrath is and will always be a lie.

Believers live in constant fear for their lives, and live only to counteract this fear, by choosing to be faithful to...a belief that can never be proven to be true, and is based purely upon a whimsical wishful thinking behavior.

There simply is no proof for a God or for No God...

Believers take to their graves, their beliefs...meanwhile the non-show of God's wrath continues to be a damp squid inside the skull of the hominid species, known as life.

Believers can no more prove their beliefs to be true than the non-believers can...meanwhile life just does what it does, without ever being made accountable for it's presence.

All the believers have got regarding the authentic credible evidence that their belief is real...is to say just be patient, just wait and see....and then they die, never knowing what the 'wait and see' ever looked like.


“A bad penny always turns up” is an aphorism for the fact that bad people or things are bound to turn up in life. We just have to deal with them when they do. There is nothing that can stop life from showing up.

.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:13 am forced "marriages,"

Arranged marriages are the norm in Asia. They are rarely "forced".

If the family has found a good husband for their daughter, she should be grateful to her family for taking care of her interests. The ingratitude of women is often astonishing:

“I was shown hell. I saw that most of its inhabitants were ungrateful women… The Prophet was asked: ‘Were they ungrateful to Allāh?’ He replied: ‘They were ungrateful to their husbands and for the favors and the good done to them. If you show benevolence to one of them and then she sees something in you not to her liking, she will say: ‘I have never seen any good in you.’”

It is not a surprise that these women are ungrateful to their husbands. Before that, they were already ungrateful to their own families!

In the West, the daughter choosing by herself, without family supervision, has turned out to be a complete disaster. It degenerates into a situation where girls run up a triple-digit body count by having sex with bad boys and other Chads. Is the hookup culture really a viable alternative to arranged marriage? With all these modern women complaining on Tiktok that they got pumped, dumped, and ghosted by the next guy on the joystick carousel, what do you propose instead of arranged marriage?

Furthermore, women complaining about customs, tradition, and religion are also not particularly smart. At best, it will cause them to lose the benefits they get from that, without gaining anything in exchange. Modern women must fend for themselves because men are sick and tired of them. This was to be expected, because their own families were already sick and tired of them.

So, yes, I believe in the increasingly popular mantra: "Islam is correct about women".

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:04 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:27 pm What does the bible say about abortion?

The Bible says nothing about rocket ships, micro computers, skateboards or marijuana, either. But it does say quite a bit about the value of life, and the wrongness of murder. It also tells us to Whom each life rightfully belongs...

And it isn't you.

Err, we're talking about the intentional murder of a living organism...not the intentional murder of an inanimate non living object. Have you seriously lost your capacity to critically think about these things IC?

And so ladies and gentlemen of the jury, here is another master twist deliberate evasion tactic used to hide the truth that does not want to be heard by IC, in his ignorance, he will resort to using a non sequitur typical response to counter-attack what IC cannot possibly give a rational logical answer to... it's a classic IC deflection response straight from the great and mighty mind twister himself, but no one is fooled by this tom foolery, bar him.

I said..and I repeat...the Bible is 100% moot on the subject of Abortion..you know, that act of intentional murder committed by humanity on itself that you claim is evil and punishable by eternal hell fire. Well, I do not see anyone who has committed an evil act serving out their prescibed sentence you claim to believe is true...do you?

That's strange, is it not, that the Bible has absolutely nothing to say about the evil intentional act of self-annihilation? maybe that's because the Bible has absolutely no idea what the SELF is...and in that fear of not knowing, will attempt by deliberation to try and fool anyone who is gullible enough to believe it does know what the SELF is, by the magical powers of human persuasion.

Your turn.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:04 pmBut it does say quite a bit about the value of life

Life..that concept known as all living sentient and non-sentient organisms...hmm, well whoopie god damn fucking doo...lets all now prevent the evil act of washing our bodies, lets all prevent the evil act of using contraceptive birth control pills. Lets all prevent the evil act of intentional hysterectomy and vasectomy. Lets all abstain from the evil act of sexual intercourse to prevent the risk of a blighted ovum ever having the chance to happen. Lets make the evil act of condoms ever being manufactured by anything other than a total 100% indestructable,absolute reliable leak-proof material. Lets make the evil act of eating dead animal meat, totally preventable by just not murdering it in the first place. Lets stop the evil act of spraying the house with fly spray. Lets just stop the evil act of eradicating head lice from our hair.

Lets instead value life for all it's worth until we die, and continue to believe that the believer who told you that your life is not your own because your life is owned by a God who values life, especially yours, but then murders you when he has made up his mind that it is your time to die. The same owner that valued your life so much he made you a body so fragile and prone to feeling the agony of being crushed to death by an earthquake that he made possible to happen because he values all life.

Jesus fucking Christ, just get me off this clown planet run by clinically insane psychopathic lunatics.

godelian wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:52 am

If the family has found a good husband for their daughter, she should be grateful to her family for taking care of her interests. The ingratitude of women is often astonishing:

It is not a surprise that these women are ungrateful to their husbands. Before that, they were already ungrateful to their own families!

In the West, the daughter choosing by herself, without family supervision, has turned out to be a complete disaster. It degenerates into a situation where girls run up a triple-digit body count by having sex with bad boys and other Chads. Is the hookup culture really a viable alternative to arranged marriage? With all these modern women complaining on Tiktok that they got pumped, dumped, and ghosted by the next guy on the joystick carousel, what do you propose instead of arranged marriage?

Furthermore, women complaining about customs, tradition, and religion are also not particularly smart. At best, it will cause them to lose the benefits they get from that, without gaining anything in exchange. Modern women must fend for themselves because men are sick and tired of them. This was to be expected, because their own families were already sick and tired of them.

So, yes, I believe in the increasingly popular mantra: "Islam is correct about women".

Why are women doing whatever they want even a negative? People should be allowed to do what they want with themselves and not have others criticize them for it.

I think a better approach would be to just let people handle the consequences of their own actions and suffer through them. It shouldn't be the business of men to save women from their mistakes.

And ultimately, freedom is a far, far more sacred value than any custom, tradition or value. This includes the freedom to make mistakes as well.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:07 am

to be a real baby, a real child or a real human requires that the being *breathes air

*As in on his own, yes?

If so: you've rendered anyone usin' an iron lung, or its equivalent, and, mebbe, anyone who has asthma and who uses an inhaler, as a non-person.

Good point, but I was referencing just anyone who breathes air with or without assistance.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:41 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:59 pm ...if not for SCOTUS—...Making abortions criminal...

I'm afraid it's clear you're not understanding what's happened at all. Your "facts" are just wrong, and wrong in ways you could confirm yourself, if you went and looked.

The R v. W. decision does not make abortions criminal. It doesn't even deny that every state in the union can have unrestricted abortions. What this decision says, is that when the court formerly ruled on R v. W., back in 1973, it was overreaching and outside the constitution entirely. This decisin says, the court screwed up, and it's time to set things in right order again.

It's not actually a decision about abortion per se, at all.

Consequently, it's a decision purely about JURISDICTION. Nothing more. Nothing else.

All it says is that the Federal Government has no jurisdiction to dictate to states what their choice about abortion must be. It says that that question has to be settled at the state level.

And that's all it says.

So we have to understand this situation correctly. Abortion has not been "overturned," as Gary's headline would induce us to imagine. And it certainly has not been "criminalized," as you suggest. All it is, is a decision that states must decide. Period. No more, no less.

Let's keep the discussion sane.

Beg pardon. I should have said that the decision allows individual States to declare or to have declared abortions to be unlawful.

I haven’t read the decision, but I believe it is aimed specifically at abortions with a more generalized application to the roles of SCOTUS, the federal government and the state governments. Your discussion plays as a plausible diversion. The only posts that you deem insane are all the opinions opposing yours.

godelian wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:52 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:13 am forced "marriages,"

Arranged marriages are the norm in Asia. They are rarely "forced".

Yes, I know the difference. I lived in the Developing World, where they sometimes are, though, and where slavery, tribalism, war, abuse...and all those other factors routinely deprive women of the protection of any man.

In the West,

So we're talking about Westerners now? No longer about the Developing World?

With all these modern women complaining on Tiktok that they got pumped, dumped, and ghosted by the next guy on the joystick carousel, what do you propose instead of arranged marriage?

Well, that's a false dichotomy, of course; those are not the only two ways things can go. But I agree that both of those alternatives are considerably less than ideal.

So, yes, I believe in the increasingly popular mantra: "Islam is correct about women".

I have to say, I totally disagree.

I suggest that Islam has a hostile and abusive view of women, judging by the Chapter of Women in the Koran...which I have read, and have right here on hand, as a matter of fact. Of course, I'm not saying that all Islamic men are abusive...some are, some aren't. I'm just saying that those who use the Koran rules will feel they have perfect permission to beat and tyrannize their wives. And that would be part of the problem.

Moreover, if we're still talking about overpopulation, the Islamic world is one place that's creating much of that. So, assuming my other interlocutors are right about there being such a problem, appealing to Islam to cure it would be utterly counterproductive. We need a much better solution.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:24 am
Well, because abortion is murder. That's a pretty good reason.

Prove it.

Otherwise...you are only bluffing, worse still, you are lying.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:39 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:24 am
Well, because abortion is murder. That's a pretty good reason.

Prove it.

Otherwise...you are only bluffing, worse still, you are lying.

You're just projecting your own tendency for lying and nonsense, again.

Crucial elements of the situation:
Premeditation. Killing. Innocents.

Sounds like first degree murder, maybe even a hate crime*.

The question is, how can a state legalize murder, even if murder is the will of the people? Answer: only by defying science, and assigning non-human status to the victim.


* hate crime, rather than crime, is referenced only because it sounds like a Progressive Label.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:55 am
We know that a baby in utero can make its own decisions. When she kicks, it's not because the mother told her to. When she gets hiccups, the mother doesn't. Her heart beats about twice as fast as the mother's does. When a needle is inserted into the amniotic sac to kill the child, she reacts away from it. And when she is pulled apart, she screams.

You are citing reflexes, not thoughtful decisions.

Not screaming while being pulled apart may be the result of a thoughtful decision, e.g., self-immolation as a war protest, however screaming while being pulled apart actually is a reflex reaction to life-ending pain.

Why am I responding for IC? Well, since he's polite enough to answer most of the stupid bullshit [SB] (as opposed to critical thinking) that gets thrown his way, I figure batting a few silly softballs is a courtesy for helping both participants and lurkers to transcend the SB tedium.