Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:09 pm

If you want me to show you what "my own personal relation with God looks like," you'd have to know me. How else could you possibly tell what difference it might make to me in my personal relationship? But that's not possible, because we don't know each other. And in any case, what does any of us know about the inner life of another person? We have guesses, perhaps; but we're never really sure, are we?

Ok fair enough, I understand that, so thanks. No one can know another person, they can only know themself. I agree. I also know that two minds can never meet. And I also know that our personal beliefs are irrefutable, because we each are the only source of our own belief.

Earlier, I must have misunderstood you, when you implied you maybe could show me what your believed God looks like, when you asked what sort of a demonstration I would want?...why couldn't you have just said straight up it's not possible, because we don't know each other. All I'm saying is that you can be a bit confusing, but it's ok, we all are guilty of being confusing when discussing our beliefs to others.

Dontaskme wrote:
IC..you cannot show another person your own believed God.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Let's see if I can.

What do you want by way of a demonstration?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:47 pm I also know that our personal beliefs are irrefutable, because we each are the only source of our own belief.

That, again, is a perfect definition of "deceived": holding "irrefutable" beliefs that are only "sourced" in oneself.

Earlier, I must have misunderstood you, when you implied you maybe could show me what your believed God looks like, when you asked what sort of a demonstration I would want.

Well, there are different demonstrations. You could have asked for a scientific argument, or one premised in logic, or a mathematical one, or a personal account, or for a probabilistic one, or a textual or historical argument. But you asked for a personal-experiential demonstration...and personal-experiential demonstrations depend on you having the experience yourself.

The experience of knowing God is neither unique, nor difficult, nor unexperienceable; but you can't "have" my experience without actually having your own as well.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:09 pm

If you want me to show you what "my own personal relation with God looks like," you'd have to know me. How else could you possibly tell what difference it might make to me in my personal relationship? But that's not possible, because we don't know each other. And in any case, what does any of us know about the inner life of another person? We have guesses, perhaps; but we're never really sure, are we?

On the other hand, if you want to know what a personal relationship with God is like, that is, your own personal relationship, that's totally possible. And it would be far more telling than anything you could possibly surmise by simply looking at some other human being from the outside. So again, it depends on which test you choose: you can't know what my relationship with God is like, but you can have your own. And then, you would certainly know.

Another point I wanted to draw your attention to IC ...

How do you imagine it is possible for another person to ALSO know - what you YOURSELF believe you know about God?
Wouldn't that just be another belief in you, one that you believe another person can know what you know...wouldn't that just be an assumed false projection. You are assuming that because you can know God, then others can too - even though you cannot possible know that others can know what you know. And that you do believe in the existence of others, is because you know you exist. That's fine, but then you cannot know if other people are capable of having the God belief, just because you do. You just cannot know that.
For all you know, another person might believe in a different God to you, one that is tyranical and dictorial, evil and bad. They might even think that their believed evil God is a cool and fun God to worship...So how would you IC ever know if another persons God is real and true, if it ever differed to yours? truth is, you could never know, for reasons you've already explained. So really, none of us could ever know what is absolutely real and true beyond what is only and ever our own personal belief sourced and authored within our own mind that no one else could ever know.

Do you think you have the authority to inform another person that the belief in a personal relationship with God is possible? just because it is possible in your mind? wouldn't that belief be you projecting your own belief that cannot be known by another person except you, since you've already stated correctly that we cannot know the inner life of another. So all you have done is assume others have the same capacity to believe in God because you know that you do. That's why I stated earlier that you are on your own with that belief, you are totally on your own, and to even think that you could assume it is possible for other people to know God is your own projection that it is possible. In reality, even you yourself cannot KNOW your belief is true or not, for it will only be a belief. One that even you yourself the author and source of the belief will never get beyond to test it out for real, you are simply stuck with a belief that's all, which is basically meaningless to be honest. It's not like you can get beyond the belief into a realtime experience and shake hands with your God or share a costa coffee and a doughnut with him. You simply cannot get beyond your own believing mind into the actuality of your believed God world.

To have a relationship with any thing outside your own mind made belief, is impossible as you have already admitted when you said we don't know other minds, or can ever be those minds, and this is why I'm saying God cannot ever be outside of your own believing mind, where you are one thing and he is the other thing and that you are both related to each other....this does not make any sense, no matter, there simply is no room in your mind for two..there is no relation...except as a belief, which is privy to you only, which means it would be completely irrelevant and meaningless to another mind.

This is why I personally had to stop believing in relationships with what is only appearing to my own mind, and not outside of it.

Perhaps, what I've said to you will not be understood, and so won't make sense to you. So no worries.

Don't you see how Religion the belief in a God is what divides humanity?

I'm not saying you cannot have your God, I'm ok with that, it's your belief after-all...I'm just pointing out that you cannot know anything of anything beyond or outside of your own mind, and that goes for every other mind, we each live in our own reality bubble. And every one is real and true, but only to the one who is experiencing that mind. In other words, there is no one mind that can inform another mind of what's real or unreal.

Even the idea that you have a mind is a belief, you will never be able to go beyond or step outside of.


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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:47 pm I also know that our personal beliefs are irrefutable, because we each are the only source of our own belief.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:16 pmThat, again, is a perfect definition of "deceived": holding "irrefutable" beliefs that are only "sourced" in oneself.

It's not deception, it's fact.

You are the only source of you. You cannot approach you by another route, for there is only one you.

Have you tested this fact out yet?

I'm talking about you and you alone, not others, just you.

You and your belief are like birds of a feather who stick together, you cannot exist without the knowledge that you do. What is a belief until it is a concept known, aka knowledge?

Where is the source of your knowledge...answer is, you are , it's you everytime. Only you have created you. Outside of you is uncreated everything and nothing appearing in you.

This is not denying the external world, it is saying the external world is in you, you are not in the external world. In fact there is nothing outside of your own knowledge that knows anything, although it exists.

The problem with BELIEF is that there is no one to prove the belief in God, and there is no one to disprove the belief in God.

There's just the belief and disbelief which is still a belief.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:44 pm How do you imagine it is possible for another person to ALSO know - what you YOURSELF believe you know about God?

His offer of relationship is to everyone. Take Him up on it, and find out.

For all you know, another person might believe in a different God to you,

There are many false views of God, and many things in this world that are not God, but are regarded or treated as "gods." This is not news.

So how would you IC ever know if another persons God is real and true, if it ever differed to yours?

You know the forgeries by knowing the original. You know a false representation of another person by knowing the person. And you know the truth about God by knowing God.

Do you think you have the authority to inform another person that the belief in a personal relationship with God is possible?

It's not my authority. I have none. Jesus Himself said, "this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

I'm saying God cannot ever be outside of your own believing mind,

You are incorrect. In fact, anything which "cannot ever be outside your own believing mind" does not exist at all. This, again, is a perfect description of self-delusion.

Don't you see how...the belief in a God is what divides humanity?

I hope it does. It should. The truth always seems to do that. And it's the most important issue in the universe. This is why Jesus said,

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; nd a person’s enemies will be the members of his household." (Matt. 10:34-36), and again, "Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." (Matt. 10:21-22)

These are not my words, and not my authority. I do not claim that they are. But I believe the words, and acknowledge the Authority.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:05 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:47 pm I also know that our personal beliefs are irrefutable, because we each are the only source of our own belief.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:16 pmThat, again, is a perfect definition of "deceived": holding "irrefutable" beliefs that are only "sourced" in oneself.

It's not deception, it's fact.

If it's fact, then it's true for everyone.

And that is, in fact, what you are insisting...that your own belief is true, and that mine is not ...is that not what you are trying to say? If it's not, you wouldn't mind me saying that what you're saying isn't true, of course. You'd just say, "Well, it is, for me".

But you know as well as I do that "true for me" means plain old "false." That's why you don't like it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:27 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:44 pm How do you imagine it is possible for another person to ALSO know - what you YOURSELF believe you know about God?

His offer of relationship is to everyone. Take Him up on it, and find out.

For all you know, another person might believe in a different God to you,

There are many false views of God, and many things in this world that are not God, but are regarded or treated as "gods." This is not news.

So how would you IC ever know if another persons God is real and true, if it ever differed to yours?

You know the forgeries by knowing the original. You know a false representation of another person by knowing the person. And you know the truth about God by knowing God.

Do you think you have the authority to inform another person that the belief in a personal relationship with God is possible?

It's not my authority. I have none. Jesus Himself said, "this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

I'm saying God cannot ever be outside of your own believing mind,

You are incorrect. In fact, anything which "cannot ever be outside your own believing mind" does not exist at all. This, again, is a perfect description of self-delusion.

Don't you see how...the belief in a God is what divides humanity?

I hope it does. It should. The truth always seems to do that. And it's the most important issue in the universe. This is why Jesus said,

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; nd a person’s enemies will be the members of his household." (Matt. 10:34-36), and again, "Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." (Matt. 10:21-22)

These are not my words, and not my authority. I do not claim that they are. But I believe the words, and acknowledge the Authority.

The last blue part is really wrong from a God who is Love. It is Evil!

IC...I think I've said enough to you now, I know it's pointless to continue, you've already made up your mind about God, so your on your own.

Literally on your own, completely alone, a bastard child, one without a second, and I know that must be a painful and scary thought for the mind, so it's no wonder it invented an imaginary friend. But that's when all the trouble started, the peaceful mind then began to be at war with itself.

Thanks for the chat though, bye bye, and may your God go with you, enjoy.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:32 pm The last blue part is really wrong from a God who is Love. It is Evil!

Well, be very careful what you say. These are the words of Jesus Christ. When you propose to judge Him, you judge yourself.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:35 pm Thanks for the chat though, bye bye, and may your God go with you, enjoy.

He will. He has promised to. I trust He's not finished speaking to you, though. Be well.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:38 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:32 pm The last blue part is really wrong from a God who is Love. It is Evil!

Well, be very careful what you say. These are the words of Jesus Christ. When you propose to judge Him, you judge yourself.

So you say the last part is good. So you will be one of those who hate each other. Is that good? If yes, why Cristian are encouraged to do the opposite, love each other.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:39 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:35 pm Thanks for the chat though, bye bye, and may your God go with you, enjoy.

He will. He has promised to. I trust He's not finished speaking to you, though. Be well.

Well you would say that wouldn't you....show me a man who has finished with words so that I may have a word with him.

I expect I'll be listening from you again, the source of all my knowledge.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:50 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:39 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:35 pm Thanks for the chat though, bye bye, and may your God go with you, enjoy.

He will. He has promised to. I trust He's not finished speaking to you, though. Be well.

Well you would say that wouldn't you....

Yes. But I'd only say it if I believed it.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:42 pm So you will be one of those who hate each other.

You didn't read very carefully, I fear. The hatred's not coming from Christ, or from those who follow Him, to the world...it's coming the other way around. It always does.

As you rightly say, Christ taught his followers, "Love your enemies, and do good to those who spitefully treat you." He didn't say, "Hate other people, and do harm to them." But as you can see, there will still be those who have decided, on their side, to be your "enemies," and who will "spitefully treat" those who are with Christ. We are warned of that: and so it has proved to be.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:35 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:42 pm So you will be one of those who hate each other.

You didn't read very carefully, I fear. The hatred's not coming from Christ, or from those who follow Him, to the world...it's coming the other way around. It always does.

As you rightly say, Christ taught his followers, "Love your enemies, and do good to those who spitefully treat you." He didn't say, "Hate other people, and do harm to them." But as you can see, there will still be those who have decided, on their side, to be your "enemies," and who will "spitefully treat" those who are with Christ. We are warned of that: and so it has proved to be.

I am talking about this: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; nd a person’s enemies will be the members of his household." (Matt. 10:34-36), and again, "Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." (Matt. 10:21-22)