God Endowed Humans with Free Will?

[RCSaunders]

I regard natural consequences as what defines justice.

No, I fully understand that you do. I've got your point. However, I think the concepts are, for most people, quite distinct.

Yes, that's the way the world actually works, but almost nobody likes it. It's much easier to blame all the, "bad," things that one experiences on an, "unjust, unfair," world, then to take responsibility for all one's choices and actions.

That can be true. But is it always true?

Yes, it's always true.

I think that the reservation that people will have is that sometimes you are not the cause of your own misery. Lord knows, on many occasions other people may be the cause of one's misery. At other times, the cause seems impossible to find, as when a triathlete who has only eaten organic food and has kept himself in tip-top shape is suddenly smitten with cancer, while a pipe-smoking, hard-drinking octogenarian lives on unperturbed.

In other words, I'm 100% for people accepting responsibility for consequences they cause; I'm not so sure you'll find it an easy sell to say that all consequences are so tidily related to personal choices.

I'm not trying to convince anyone else. Most people really believe whatever suffering they experience is some kind of injustice. They believe, just because they were born they deserve a, "nice life," and when their failure to achieve and produce results in an unsatisfied life, they blame the cruel world, or society, or the government and the unfairness of it all. I understand that, but they're wrong, and the solution is to stop using every pain and disappointment in life as an excuse to give up and to work to overcome it all.

Have a look at my article, Wonderful World. It is from my view of the world as neutral, neither benevolent or malevolent, but the potential for all good, as opposed to a Christian or existentialist view of a malevolent or sin-cursed world.

[Immanuel Can]

I regard natural consequences as what defines justice.

No, I fully understand that you do. I've got your point. However, I think the concepts are, for most people, quite distinct.

Yes, that's the way the world actually works, but almost nobody likes it. It's much easier to blame all the, "bad," things that one experiences on an, "unjust, unfair," world, then to take responsibility for all one's choices and actions.

That can be true. But is it always true?

Yes, it's always true.

I think not. I think there are a lot of people who, as we say, "don't deserve" what they get, or "haven't brought it on themselves," both for good and for ill. And I think most folks see it the same way. It's not very easy, to say the least, to explain why bad things happen to good people, and bad people often go on seemingly greatly rewarded for their badness.

...I'm 100% for people accepting responsibility for consequences they cause; I'm not so sure you'll find it an easy sell to say that all consequences are so tidily related to personal choices.

I'm not trying to convince anyone else. Most people really believe whatever suffering they experience is some kind of injustice.

Yes, that's what I mean.

...the solution is to stop using every pain and disappointment in life as an excuse to give up and to work to overcome it all.

Hmmm...cold comfort to the person who is suffering a disease or disability he/she did nothing to produce, and can't neatly "overcome" by bucking up and having a can-do attitude, I'm thinking.

...a Christian or existentialist view of a malevolent or sin-cursed world.

Well, different Existentialists saw that differently. And Christians regard Creation as good, even if fallen.

What you're talking about might be more Gnostic.