Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:42 pmYou see, I do not care whether or not I "win" this discussion.

Then at least we have one thing in common since "winning" never had anything to do with this discussion.

If a Jewish preacher gathering his flock and preaching in the backwaters of Palestine inspires you to believe he is both god and savior then that is your choice. If you want to interpret the stories in a way anything but historical to confirm and uphold your beliefs so be it but don't expect others to follow as if it were irrefutably guaranteed and sealed.

Jesus was completely human except for those who have no problem transgressing all the known and established facts to assert the opposite. It would have been more appropriate and honest for a theist to say...fine, I understand all that but nevertheless..., thereby closing the argument for good accepting its true history yet surmounting it through belief which is precisely the absurdity of it as understood by only the most insightful of theists. Having said that, I'll assert again, there were far greater individuals, before and after, than Jesus inhabiting the planet.

...and you still haven't explained how other religions or beliefs are to avoid damnation in which Jesus has no part or at best, only a subordinate one.
But you don't have to explain; the lack thereof explains itself.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:50 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:42 pmYou see, I do not care whether or not I "win" this discussion.

Then at least we have one thing in common since "winning" never had anything to do with this discussion.

Quite right. In the gamble you're making, you never had anything to win, as I said. You only had two types of loss...the horrible, and the truly horrible -- oblivion or judgment.

My advice: change your alternatives by changing your relationship to God. But this, I can only offer as advice in your interest. I cannot make you choose it. God has given you free will, and you will use it as you see fit. It can be no other way.

And you have been told that's how it is.

...don't expect others to follow as if it were irrefutably guaranteed and sealed.

Expect? What does my expectation matter? What God says will be, will be, of course. That much is guaranteed and sealed. Whether others "follow" or not is the only thing within their power to change the situation.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:15 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:50 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:42 pmYou see, I do not care whether or not I "win" this discussion.

Then at least we have one thing in common since "winning" never had anything to do with this discussion.

Quite right. In the gamble you're making, you never had anything to win, as I said. You only had two types of loss...the horrible, and the truly horrible -- oblivion or judgment.

My advice: change your alternatives by changing your relationship to God. But this, I can only offer as advice in your interest. I cannot make you choose it. God has given you free will, and you will use it as you see fit. It can be no other way.

And you have been told that's how it is.

...don't expect others to follow as if it were irrefutably guaranteed and sealed.

Expect? What does my expectation matter? What God says will be, will be, of course. That much is guaranteed and sealed. Whether others "follow" or not is the only thing within their power to change the situation.

Your intended advice is groundless, i.e.
God is an Impossibility to be real
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704

Immanuel Can wrote:...the best you get is to die meaninglessly and plunge into endless night.

Actually you [and other theists] are in a terrible state of terror and meaninglessly arising from an inherent cognitive dissonance from an existential crisis, but that is only relieved thinly [by the skin of one's teeth] by a belief in an illusory God.

To ensure your own security you are transposing your own state of terror and meaningless to others who do not share the same belief as yours.
This is typical of many spiritually and psychologically insecure theists.

Btw, certain theists will even kill those who do not share their theism or are perceived to be pulling their security blankets [note some Muslims].

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:15 am In the gamble you're making, you never had anything to win, as I said. You only had two types of loss...the horrible, and the truly horrible -- oblivion or judgment.

You're so very convinced of that are you! But as I already asked a few times, what about all the other religions and beliefs who don't subscribe to Jesus. Is that also their fate?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:15 am Expect? What does my expectation matter?

It matters a lot; in fact it's critical because it's the expectation which causes you to believe. Why would you give a hoot if you didn't expect to capitalize? Pascal's Wager once again!

Btw, what's so horrible about oblivion? Did you find it horrible prior to being born? Personally, I didn't even notice! The time went by so fast and all of a sudden I was here! Another thing I noticed; it often takes longer to leave than arrive!

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:50 amdon't expect others to follow as if it were irrefutably guaranteed and sealed.

Surrender only to life which is God's life. There is no seal around God's life...it's totally free to be.

You have free will, choose to resist the flow that is God's way, or surrender the flow that is God's way.

The only seal that exists here is the one you are putting around your self imposed prison that is your resistence to God's way, which by all accounts is the flow that no human man woman child or animal can stop.


.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:12 am Did you find it horrible prior to being born?

Speaking of being born.

Do you like being born, or do you prefer not to have ever been born? Do you have a preference?

You don't have to answer.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:12 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:15 am In the gamble you're making, you never had anything to win, as I said. You only had two types of loss...the horrible, and the truly horrible -- oblivion or judgment.

You're so very convinced of that are you!

Well, you are, if you know what your own ideology rationalizes. In your wildest, most positive estimation as an Atheist, the best thing you can hope for is the great eternal blackness. That's your BEST outcome.

But as I already asked a few times, what about all the other religions and beliefs who don't subscribe to Jesus. Is that also their fate?

There are good answers to that question, and I could offer at least three I can think of. But none of them make any difference in your own case, since you are an Atheist. That makes the whole question a good one for others, perhaps, but merely a red herring when it comes to you and me.

Btw, what's so horrible about oblivion?

Well, if you had never existed, and had never been conscious, there would be nobody to ask that question. But you have existed, and you are conscious. Does it seem so indifferent to you now?

If it does, it's an outcome perhaps you can anticipate. For as I say, as you are an Atheist, it has to be the best you're going to get anyway.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:07 am God is an Impossibility to be real
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704

I saw this discussion already. It's irrelevant. There are no answers there, just your own gratuitous assumptions formed into a dogmatic reasserting of the same obviously-faulty suppositions.

Immanuel Can wrote:...the best you get is to die meaninglessly and plunge into endless night.

To ensure your own security you are transposing your own state of terror and meaningless to others who do not share the same belief as yours.

Actually, not at all. It has to be quite obvious to you that any honest Atheist has to know exactly the same thing. There is no afterlife, by Atheism. There is only personal death at the end of every life, and cosmic heat death at the end of the universe. That is exactly what follows IF the Atheist himself gets everything he's expecting.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:46 pmWell, you are, if you know what your own ideology rationalizes. In your wildest, most positive estimation as an Atheist, the best thing you can hope for is the great eternal blackness. That's your BEST outcome

"Great eternal blackness", being the usual hyped up line, among others, most theists threaten against the non-believer for over a thousand years. It's not unlike Galileo being shown the instruments of torture to straighten him up! Such threats are all so very common and all-too-human. In short, nothing new here.

Dubious wrote:
But as I already asked a few times, what about all the other religions and beliefs who don't subscribe to Jesus. Is that also their fate?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:46 pmThere are good answers to that question, and I could offer at least three I can think of. But none of them make any difference in your own case, since you are an Atheist. That makes the whole question a good one for others, perhaps, but merely a red herring when it comes to you and me.

I find this cop out both sad and amusing at the same time in how obvious it is. Pathetic doesn't even apply.

Forget about me fated to dwell in that great eternal blackness if it suits you to believe that. One of the most critical questions in this kind of debate is what happens to those of other faiths, including the Chosen of Judaism since none of them subscribe to your prime directive of being saved through Jesus.

So to repeat, since as you say there are at least three good answers, please tell us what should exclude members of other denominations whose beliefs are not centered in Jesus from the same fate you apply to me!

It's not only a good question, it's a critical one which relates to what YOU believe.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:46 pmWell, if you had never existed, and had never been conscious, there would be nobody to ask that question. But you have existed, and you are conscious. Does it seem so indifferent to you now?

Absolutely indifferent, since there is no difference between the Before and After of my existence. Only the here & now includes EVERYTHING of what I am and that I am! After I'm gone I'll never know or have known of my existence...meaning "not to be but be as ALL that came before".

Jesus, me, you and everyone else will have that in common. The universe has zero concern for what anyone believes including what atheists believe or not.

Personally, I find that kind of refreshing!

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:08 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:46 pmWell, you are, if you know what your own ideology rationalizes. In your wildest, most positive estimation as an Atheist, the best thing you can hope for is the great eternal blackness. That's your BEST outcome

"Great eternal blackness", being the usual hyped up line...

Hardly. What would you call what you anticipate? Reincarnation? The afterlife? Nirvana? Heaven? Not if you're an Atheist, you don't. You expect "lights out," and that forever.

Give it whatever euphemism you like, it's a bad outcome. And it's the best you get.

Dubious wrote:
But as I already asked a few times, what about all the other religions and beliefs who don't subscribe to Jesus. Is that also their fate?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:46 pmThere are good answers to that question, and I could offer at least three I can think of. But none of them make any difference in your own case, since you are an Atheist. That makes the whole question a good one for others, perhaps, but merely a red herring when it comes to you and me.

I find this cop out both sad and amusing at the same time in how obvious it is.

And yet, I'm unperturbed.

You, personally, know what you need to know. What other people know or don't know is not of the slightest moment to you. For you, it changes nothing. So I'll save my answers for those who have reason to ask.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:24 am

Dubious wrote:
But as I already asked a few times, what about all the other religions and beliefs who don't subscribe to Jesus. Is that also their fate?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:46 pmThere are good answers to that question, and I could offer at least three I can think of. But none of them make any difference in your own case, since you are an Atheist. That makes the whole question a good one for others, perhaps, but merely a red herring when it comes to you and me.

I find this cop out both sad and amusing at the same time in how obvious it is.

And yet, I'm unperturbed.

You, personally, know what you need to know. What other people know or don't know is not of the slightest moment to you. For you, it changes nothing. So I'll save my answers for those who have reason to ask.

The question had nothing further to do with me; you know my position. Instead it referred to all those other believers, whatever their denomination, who don't subscribe to Jesus and your insistence that to be saved it's mandatory to believe in him. This causes the question to be indispensable.

What happens to everyone else who is not an atheist?

You just confirmed you have no answer the reason for which is clear. The very core of your belief is centered in Jesus. Inherent in that belief is the paradox of forcing damnation or oblivion on those for whom Jesus is not the center and you can't get yourself to state - especially the Jews being also included - its logical conclusion as going too far and therefore remain silent.

In effect, you're forced to deny ANYONE the reason to ask and avoid having to compromise, if only on this forum, your own beliefs in the process.

To summarize why withhold the explanations you profess to have that may vindicate some of your perennial assertions about Jesus? Could it be you don't have any because there aren't any that can reconcile it in which case, your silence and denial makes perfect sense!

Under these circumstances your reason not to respond seems more reasonable than what you preach.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:44 am The question had nothing further to do with me; you know my position.

Right. So let's not waste your time and mine.

You just confirmed you have no answer...

No, you just admitted you have no stake whatsoever in the question. You were wasting time, as I said. You were throwing up red herrings, issues in which you have no personal stake at all, for the sake of avoiding the one issue in which you really do have a stake.

But it's your soul, not mine. So be careful what you do with it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:22 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:44 am The question had nothing further to do with me; you know my position.

Right. So let's not waste your time and mine.

You just confirmed you have no answer...

No, you just admitted you have no stake whatsoever in the question. You were wasting time, as I said. You were throwing up red herrings, issues in which you have no personal stake at all, for the sake of avoiding the one issue in which you really do have a stake.

But it's your soul, not mine. So be careful what you do with it.

No! What you've not only admitted but confirmed is that you have no answer to the question without compromising your beliefs which is a question anyone would ask under the conditions you provided.

What happens to everyone else who is not an atheist?

A major fallacy here is that you blame the question on the person who asked a very inconvenient one and based on that you negated the question. It's understandable in a way! You had no choice but to nullify it since there is no valid response that would make your views on Jesus look reasonable; ergo, making cheap excuses by blaming it on me is your only way out of explaining a paradox. In lieu of having to respond you redefined an essential impersonal question into one that's personal to avoid it. That is your justification.

Based on your assertion that only Jesus can save, YOU are the one directly responsible for the obvious counter question being raised in the first place, what of those people who aren't atheist! The truth of it is that NO reply is possible without creating a sham out of your own beliefs. To get yourself out of that cul-de-sac your refusal to respond is its own answer.

Also what I noticed you never attack an argument objectively but usually the person who makes it especially when you can't supply credible counter arguments against it. Always then you default to the person and not to the argument as in this case. It may not amount to any vicious Ad homs but it definitely belongs to the category.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:47 am No! What you've not only admitted...

You mean, "What you have denied, and then refused to play games with me about..." I understand why you would rather talk about hypothetical "others" than about your own condition. But I doubt it's very wise.

As I said earlier, I have at least three good answers: none of them will you have. For I see you've made your choice: you're not interested in the state of your soul or the condition of your future. Moreover, you're determined to maintain an antagonistic, insulting position toward God. So there's not a whole lot more to be said. I have to accept your decision. You are what you want to be, I see.

But remember this moment: because one day, you'll be accountable for what you yourself have decided.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:25 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:47 am No! What you've not only admitted...

You mean, "What you have denied, and then refused to play games with me about..."

As I said earlier, I have at least three good answers: none of them will you have. For I see you've made your choice: you're not interested in the state of your soul or the condition of your future. Moreover, you're determined to maintain an antagonistic, insulting position toward God. So there's not a whole lot more to be said. I have to accept your decision. You are what you want to be, I see.

But remember this moment: because one day, you'll be accountable for what you yourself have decided.

Forget my soul which you keep harping on. Stick to the subject. Almost everything you said so far I won't have which has nothing whatsoever to do with god and everything to do with you!

You certainly make a big secret of what you can't explain for fear of imploding your own beliefs. You say you have three of them! Why not begin by supplying ONE to give yourself some credence beyond simply preaching and condemning! Offer something logical for a change! It doesn't even have to be true!

...and what about not only what I decided but others too have decided who did not decide for Jesus as their savior? What about them...are they too fated for oblivion. Why leave them out to ask again and again and again...