Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:51 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:16 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:08 am

How logical is it of you assert that there exists such a thing as morality where it is impossible to very with any empirical reality?
You are seriously self deluded.
You are nothing but nonsense. Your assertions are literally nonsense.

The majority of empirical reality is an abstraction through the facets of thought and memory. What we understand of reality is a perpetual "now" which is aligned in accords with this very same thought and memory. What we deem as empirical is built upon abstractions.

If there is no morality then to negate morality is to require some definition, that always must be negated, that exists along a continuum. As self assumed, along a continuum of definitions, it is grounded by it's very nature of self assumption, in a reciprocal nature.

Now tell me....what is logic?

You are contradicting yourself. On the one hand you undermine empirical observation as just inner construction; but you still pretend that morals are out there.

False it is the cycling between empirical phenomena and abstractions that necessitate the cyclical nature of self reflection as being the primary origin of value placement. With value placement comes the formation of morality as a means of being through the synthesis of abstractions and empiricality.

I see you are struggling with reality.
Are you seeing anyone about your delusions?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:36 pm... - precisely what is illogical about Christianity?

EVERYTHING is illogical about Christianity.
I think my list of what is illogical is much bigger than anything you have that suggests it is logical.
SO why not answer my question?

Whilst you muse here is a small list of things that make Christianity illogical. It is not an exhaustive list, just a few things to go on...

Illogical Christianity.

1 Loving God promises barbaric punishments.
2. Death bed confessions allow maniacs like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler to get to heaven.
3. God of the OT is basically dispensing genocide, disease, and famine on the unworthy.
4. How is Jesus' sacrifice logical? How can one person die for another's sins?
5. As long as you believe you seem to be able to act as you will. Absurd!
6. Infants get a free ticket to heaven. Why not just kill your child to save them from hell, then ask for forgiveness?
7. Christians seem to insist that life begins at conception. How come God keeps aborting kids with natural miscarriages (estimated at 25% of all pregnancies)?
8. Why are there no miracles to solve the world's starvation? Seem to be plenty in biblical times?
9. How can Christian claim the NT is the word of God when there are so many contradictions.
10. Prayer is inherently illogical with an omnipotent, omniscient god. Think about it!
11. Bible condones slavery.
12.Christianity accepts homosexuality yet it is condemned as an abomination in the Bible.
13. Women? Need I say more?
14. God's basic ignorance of science in his WORD>
15. One God, yet a multitude of secular interests and splinter groups willing to fight each other. Millions have died because of spliting.

16. What the 10 commandments COULD have done:
No proscription of slavery
No proscription of child endangerment
No proscription of bigotry
No proscription of racism
No proscription of sexism
No proscription of classism
No proscription of blackmail or bribery
No proscription of discrimination against LGBTQ persons
No proscription of incest
No proscription of torture or terrorism
No proscription of rape
No proscription against the mistreatment, exploitation, and relocation of native populations
No command to treat animals humanely
No command to take care of the Earth’s environment
No command to help others in need
No command to settle disputes peacefully
No command to distribute the Earth’s resources fairly.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:35 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:36 pm... - precisely what is illogical about Christianity?

EVERYTHING is illogical about Christianity.
I think my list of what is illogical is much bigger than anything you have that suggests it is logical.
SO why not answer my question?

Whilst you muse here is a small list of things that make Christianity illogical. It is not an exhaustive list, just a few things to go on...

Illogical Christianity.

1 Loving God promises barbaric punishments.
2. Death bed confessions allow maniacs like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler to get to heaven.
3. God of the OT is basically dispensing genocide, disease, and famine on the unworthy.
4. How is Jesus' sacrifice logical? How can one person die for another's sins?
5. As long as you believe you seem to be able to act as you will. Absurd!
6. Infants get a free ticket to heaven. Why not just kill your child to save them from hell, then ask for forgiveness?
7. Christians seem to insist that life begins at conception. How come God keeps aborting kids with natural miscarriages (estimated at 25% of all pregnancies)?
8. Why are there no miracles to solve the world's starvation? Seem to be plenty in biblical times?
9. How can Christian claim the NT is the word of God when there are so many contradictions.
10. Prayer is inherently illogical with an omnipotent, omniscient god. Think about it!
11. Bible condones slavery.
12.Christianity accepts homosexuality yet it is condemned as an abomination in the Bible.
13. Women? Need I say more?
14. God's basic ignorance of science in his WORD>
15. One God, yet a multitude of secular interests and splinter groups willing to fight each other. Millions have died because of spliting.

16. What the 10 commandments COULD have done:
No proscription of slavery
No proscription of child endangerment
No proscription of bigotry
No proscription of racism
No proscription of sexism
No proscription of classism
No proscription of blackmail or bribery
No proscription of discrimination against LGBTQ persons
No proscription of incest
No proscription of torture or terrorism
No proscription of rape
No proscription against the mistreatment, exploitation, and relocation of native populations
No command to treat animals humanely
No command to take care of the Earth’s environment
No command to help others in need
No command to settle disputes peacefully
No command to distribute the Earth’s resources fairly.

The command against many of these assertions, using incest as an example, has already been stated in scriptures. The parable of the good samaritan is another example, one against racism and abuse (torture and terrorism by proxy).

No contradiction occurs as morality exists through a progressive revelation. What was permissible eventually becomes negated through an evolution of perspective. Morality is synthetic, as it progresses new and old moral codes synthesize.

You have yet to state what logic is, claiming something is illogical without asserting what is logical is a contradiction.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:44 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:35 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm

EVERYTHING is illogical about Christianity.
I think my list of what is illogical is much bigger than anything you have that suggests it is logical.
SO why not answer my question?

Whilst you muse here is a small list of things that make Christianity illogical. It is not an exhaustive list, just a few things to go on...

Illogical Christianity.

1 Loving God promises barbaric punishments.
2. Death bed confessions allow maniacs like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler to get to heaven.
3. God of the OT is basically dispensing genocide, disease, and famine on the unworthy.
4. How is Jesus' sacrifice logical? How can one person die for another's sins?
5. As long as you believe you seem to be able to act as you will. Absurd!
6. Infants get a free ticket to heaven. Why not just kill your child to save them from hell, then ask for forgiveness?
7. Christians seem to insist that life begins at conception. How come God keeps aborting kids with natural miscarriages (estimated at 25% of all pregnancies)?
8. Why are there no miracles to solve the world's starvation? Seem to be plenty in biblical times?
9. How can Christian claim the NT is the word of God when there are so many contradictions.
10. Prayer is inherently illogical with an omnipotent, omniscient god. Think about it!
11. Bible condones slavery.
12.Christianity accepts homosexuality yet it is condemned as an abomination in the Bible.
13. Women? Need I say more?
14. God's basic ignorance of science in his WORD>
15. One God, yet a multitude of secular interests and splinter groups willing to fight each other. Millions have died because of spliting.

16. What the 10 commandments COULD have done:
No proscription of slavery
No proscription of child endangerment
No proscription of bigotry
No proscription of racism
No proscription of sexism
No proscription of classism
No proscription of blackmail or bribery
No proscription of discrimination against LGBTQ persons
No proscription of incest
No proscription of torture or terrorism
No proscription of rape
No proscription against the mistreatment, exploitation, and relocation of native populations
No command to treat animals humanely
No command to take care of the Earth’s environment
No command to help others in need
No command to settle disputes peacefully
No command to distribute the Earth’s resources fairly.

The command against many of these assertions, using incest as an example, has already been stated in scriptures. The parable of the good samaritan is another example, one against racism and abuse (torture and terrorism by proxy).

What about the numerous genocides?
What about the examples where god condones incest?

The incest in genesis was prior to the revelation of incest being wrong in leviticus, deuteronomy and the new testament. It is revelatory by nature.

As to the genocides you have to elaborate as taken out of context, genocide and war are confused. Provide scripture, It is hypocritical to even argue the genocide remark as more people where killed under communist atheism within a hundred years than those killed in religious wars in the past several hundred. The "God is a murderer" argument is hypocritical

No contradiction occurs as morality exists through a progressive revelation. What was permissible eventually becomes negated through an evolution of perspective. Morality is synthetic, as it progresses new and old moral codes synthesize.

You have yet to state what logic is, claiming something is illogical without asserting what is logical is a contradiction.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:50 pm What is logic? I am not answering any more scriptural arguments until you provide a definition for what logic is. Why? Because the whole argument will circles around an undefined term.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:18 pm

• 16 “‘When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man has sexual relations with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both of them must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.
  (Leviticus 15:16-18)

• O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.(Quran 5:6, interpretation of meaning)

• And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.(Quran 3:85, interpretation of meaning)

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:32 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:50 pm What is logic? I am not answering any more scriptural arguments until you provide a definition for what logic is. Why? Because the whole argument will circles around an undefined term.

If you don't know what it is then you have no right to start a thread which includes it in the title.
Now bugger off.

Averroes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:49 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:18 pm

Hi John. How are you?

Please my friend allow me to contribute to your thread.

I remember a time when I was following the Christian Bible which I got from my mother. I have a beautiful story on that which I would like to share with you if you allow me.

In my early teenage years(from about 13 or so I think), I used to read the Bible a lot. For example, The Book of Job I read a lot. Prophet Job(peace be upon him) has always been a model for me, and even now his story inspires me and teaches me righteousness. The story of Prophet Job(pbuh) is narrated and he is greatly praised in the Quran. If you are interested, Islamic scholars narrate this story in the light of the Holy Quran here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUiUjAFQaw8

I read much of the Jewish part of the Bible in my early years, even though I was raised in a Christian environment; went to Christian school, recited daily Christian prayers and all that.
Anyway, once I came across a verse in the OT which I had an impact on me so I had then decided to practice it from that day. This was a passage in Leviticus which reads as follows:

• 16 “‘When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man has sexual relations with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both of them must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.
  (Leviticus 15:16-18)

Most Christians do not have such practices nowadays as you must already know even though it is written in the Bible they read. They say that supposedly an innocent man died and paid for their sins, so now they can do away with the OT and do whatever they want. I never could accept this kind of logic. I was very uncomfortable with the idea that an innocent person should pay for my sins. I thought and still think that it is very unjust for the innocent to pay for the criminals.

So, I was about 13 to 15 when I started to practice this verse. In hindsight, this makes a lot of sense now as this is the time when hormones start to build in the body, and you can guess the consequences for the young boy that I was then. And cleanliness is always better than uncleanliness.

Then many years later, I embraced Islam after having studied it and been convinced that it was the truth. Now, interestingly, the first thing after embracing Islam that I was told to do was to take a ritual bath known in Islam as Ghusl. Essentially, it was the bath I have been doing since my teenage years. In Islam, we have to wash the body completely after having had intercourse with our wives (or husband for women) or when semen is ejected from the body. In the Quran, Allah the All Wise says:

• O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.(Quran 5:6, interpretation of meaning)

Now I have come to interprete this story of mine as God, the Almighty preparing me to embrace Islam, the only religion that is accepted in His sight.

• And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.(Quran 3:85, interpretation of meaning)

My journey in Islam has been such a wonderful journey, I learned a lot since I embraced Islam.
May I invite you to embrace Islam my brother John?

Recently, I learned that someone that I appreciate a lot has embraced Islam. She is a YouTuber. She is Rosie Gabriel from Canada. I used to watch some of her videos when I had an opportunity. I found she had such a good heart. And also I like places she goes on her motorbike! A couple of days ago, I got the good news she embraced Islam.

You can check this beautiful video of hers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waIB1QP3l68

If Allah the Almighty wills, may be one day I will get good news from members embracing Islam on the forum as well. I never despair of the mercy of Allah, the Most Merciful.
Have a nice day John. Take care of yourself.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:45 pm I am familiar with the ritual bath, I did it instinctively in my youth before even reading the verses in scripture. I interpret it as a ritual of purifying oneself from material aspects of reality prior to facing God (prayers, worship, etc.).

As to my personal stance with Islam, I am neither for nor against it. If anything I believe there should be more dialogues between the faiths.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm 16. What the 10 commandments COULD have done:
No proscription of slavery
No proscription of child endangerment
No proscription of bigotry
No proscription of racism
No proscription of sexism
No proscription of classism
No proscription of blackmail or bribery
No proscription of discrimination against LGBTQ persons
No proscription of incest
No proscription of torture or terrorism
No proscription of rape
No proscription against the mistreatment, exploitation, and relocation of native populations
No command to treat animals humanely
No command to take care of the Earth’s environment
No command to help others in need
No command to settle disputes peacefully
No command to distribute the Earth’s resources fairly.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:56 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:45 pm I am familiar with the ritual bath, I did it instinctively in my youth before even reading the verses in scripture. I interpret it as a ritual of purifying oneself from material aspects of reality prior to facing God (prayers, worship, etc.).

As to my personal stance with Islam, I am neither for nor against it. If anything I believe there should be more dialogues between the faiths.

In my twenties I landed up in a place in India where jews, muslims, christians, buddhists, hindus and whatever other creed you may have been, participated in collective prayer/worship. I am yet to experience such solidarity anywhere else.

The 'guru' used a few cheap parlour tricks/illusions to keep the crowds entertained. Long story short: it was a capitalist tactic for funding communal projects. Free universities, free water supply, free hospitals, free housing for lots and lots (few million) poor people.

The faith-seekers paid for what they wanted (enlightenment) - the poor got what they needed (paid for by the newly enlightened). The system worked.

And then Sam Harris tried to expose the "guru" as a charlatan because his magic tricks were amateurish. Intellectuals really fail to see the big picture of messy human affairs

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:36 pm... - precisely what is illogical about Christianity?

EVERYTHING is illogical about Christianity.
I think my list of what is illogical is much bigger than anything you have that suggests it is logical.
SO why not answer my question?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pmWhilst you muse here is a small list of things that make Christianity illogical. It is not an exhaustive list, just a few things to go on...

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm Illogical Christianity.

1 Loving God promises barbaric punishments.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm 2. Death bed confessions allow maniacs like Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler to get to heaven.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm3. God of the OT is basically dispensing genocide, disease, and famine on the unworthy.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm4. How is Jesus' sacrifice logical? How can one person die for another's sins?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm5. As long as you believe you seem to be able to act as you will. Absurd!

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm6. Infants get a free ticket to heaven. Why not just kill your child to save them from hell, then ask for forgiveness?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm7. Christians seem to insist that life begins at conception. How come God keeps aborting kids with natural miscarriages (estimated at 25% of all pregnancies)?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm8. Why are there no miracles to solve the world's starvation? Seem to be plenty in biblical times?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm9. How can Christian claim the NT is the word of God when there are so many contradictions.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm10. Prayer is inherently illogical with an omnipotent, omniscient god. Think about it!

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:50 pm11. Bible condones slavery.

Sculptor wrote:12.Christianity accepts homosexuality yet it is condemned as an abomination in the Bible.

Sculptor wrote:13. Women? Need I say more?

Sculptor wrote:14. God's basic ignorance of science in his WORD>

Sculptor wrote:15. One God, yet a multitude of secular interests and splinter groups willing to fight each other. Millions have died because of spliting.

Sculptor wrote:16. What the 10 commandments COULD have done:
No proscription of slavery
No proscription of child endangerment
No proscription of bigotry
No proscription of racism
No proscription of sexism
No proscription of classism
No proscription of blackmail or bribery
No proscription of discrimination against LGBTQ persons
No proscription of incest
No proscription of torture or terrorism
No proscription of rape
No proscription against the mistreatment, exploitation, and relocation of native populations
No command to treat animals humanely
No command to take care of the Earth’s environment
No command to help others in need
No command to settle disputes peacefully
No command to distribute the Earth’s resources fairly.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:42 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:32 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:50 pm What is logic? I am not answering any more scriptural arguments until you provide a definition for what logic is. Why? Because the whole argument will circles around an undefined term.

If you don't know what it is then you have no right to start a thread which includes it in the title.
Now bugger off.

I can't continue with the argument unless you present what defines logic. I already presented a definition, but you claim "illogic"...okay so what is "logic"?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:43 am So what? Just because your wishlist didn't make it into the buy bull you think you have an argument that Christianity is illogical.

You have NOT made ONE statement that renders Christianity illogical. Thanks for playing.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:26 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:43 am So what? Just because your wishlist didn't make it into the buy bull you think you have an argument that Christianity is illogical.

You have NOT made ONE statement that renders Christianity illogical. Thanks for playing.

Before you comment on a post you not only have to read it but you also have to understand it.