The Absolute Impossibility of Nothingness - ever

[Dontaskme]

Arising_uk there is no such thing as a thing. What is a thing, have you ever seen a thing?

If you know what a thing is please share here, and describe in your own words what a thing is?

Please continue.....many thanks.

Sure, a thing is the noun we use when we haven't or can't remember the specific noun for the thingy. It's the thing my baby points at that it wants. It's the thing I point at that others can then pick-up which confirms it's thinginess.

So basically a thing is not actually anything at all except what it says on the label.

Which is more proof that no thing exists....since the menu is not the food.

So everything you've ever believed about your reality is imagined...and you've bought the programme.

[Arising_uk]

A 'variable', in other words, right? I could use a box with a label on it to refer to its contents without knowing or being able to specify what is inside or even knowing they exist to reference. But the box would hint that it 'contains' something for just existing. Otherwise, it would collapse on itself and either represent itself as constant (a box itself only containing itself) or non-existent and unreferenceable . Just the fact that we can reference anything is enough to assert 'some' existence. "Thing" is thus as suitable a term to at least assert the meaning that "at least one X exists". And if anyone disagrees, they've asserted their own existence as a constant to you, which is even more certain to prove you are correct regardless of anyone else's opinion to the contrary.

Looks like you and me are on the same logic page Scott and apparently Rene's as well.

[Arising_uk]

....except of course if we ignore the possibility that NO logic is sufficiently powerful enough to be perfectly consistent. ...

I'd have thought Propositional Logic is perfectly consistent?

[Arising_uk]

So basically a thing is not actually anything at all except what it says on the label. ...

No, it's the thing you can stick a label upon.

"We must not say, “The complex sign ‘aRb’ says ‘a stands in relation R to b;’” but we must say, “That ‘a’ stands in a certain relation to ‘b’ says that aRb.” "
TLP 3.1432. L. Wittgenstein.

Which is more proof that no thing exists....since the menu is not the food. ...

What's the food then?

So everything you've ever believed about your reality is imagined...and you've bought the programme.

No, everything I've believed about reality is perceived. What makes you think this programme is about us?

[Dontaskme]

So basically a thing is not actually anything at all except what it says on the label. ...

No, it's the thing you can stick a label upon.

"We must not say, “The complex sign ‘aRb’ says ‘a stands in relation R to b;’” but we must say, “That ‘a’ stands in a certain relation to ‘b’ says that aRb.” "
TLP 3.1432. L. Wittgenstein.

We must not even say that mr L Wittgenstien ....because You Are Tacit...everything else is a false interpretation.

No, everything I've believed about reality is perceived. What makes you think this programme is about us?

Exactly my point.

And isn't the act of perception an imagined phenomena?

[Dontaskme]

What's the food then?

A synonym for territory. Here.

There is only the here and now perceiving.....anything perceived cannot perceive ..right?

[Dontaskme]

So basically a thing is not actually anything at all except what it says on the label. ...

No, it's the thing you can stick a label upon.

And what thing is that upon which a label stuck? please explain?

[Lacewing]

Can you also see that every thing is relative to no thing and is how the idea of thing is born in the first place? except it's not actually born, it's just an idea...so yes an idea is born apparently, and yet not since an idea is just a transitory opaque phenomena of the senses.

Yes, I believe so. My pattern of thinking doesn't seem to travel some of these paths that provide greater explanation... so I have to read and re-read when my eyes start glazing over. To me, you seem to explain these concepts very well... but then you and I think/see similarly (it appears), so naturally I would think that about you!

Realising "what is" does not need to be conscious. Does not need to awaken to itself. Doesn't need sense perceptions, is prior to language and consciousness and is not energy or light or God or sub-atomic particles or emptiness or any other explanation.

YES! There is no need or separation at all! I think this well describes why all of the many various explanations and constructs about what is and must be, are based on our made-up stuff... which can be very creatively entertaining and imaginative, but which also (naturally) obstruct the simplicity of WHAT IS WITHOUT THEM. As much fun and challenge as I have in seeing what I can do with our human constructs, I seem most inclined to think in a way that strips it all away. To remember that it's all made-up... so that I can use it, rather than it consuming me. And I try to inspire other people to consider that too if it's of interest/use to them.

[Lacewing]

Dear Lacewing..I had a vision of nothingness at the tender age of 6 years old....I recall the exact moment so vividly even today...At that moment when the vision of nothingness spontaneously arose in me, did this ''me'' person disappear in the same moment. It's like I had my first awakening to oneness when I was 6 years old. Wow!!

That is awesome!! And delightful to hear from a fellow human! My experience of nothingness was in my late-twenties.

But from my earliest impressions (even as a baby before I learned to speak), I had a sense that humans didn't know what they were doing. I felt sorry for them and wanted to comfort them. They seemed so fearful... and limited. My path to adulthood was always dancing with increasing awareness and exploration (more than human knowledge), which eventually led me to a lot of hallucinogenic use in my mid-twenties... further blowing the doors off of this reality.

Then in my late-twenties, my glimpse of nothingness came during an incident where I lay dying for about 24 hours before help arrived. I was actually bleeding slowly to death such that my veins were collapsing. Something instinctively told me to "shut down" my body's operations to minimal (I don't know how I did that, but I did). The energy/space(?) that I seemed to be merging into was vast and undefined. There were no judgments, structure, resistance, emotions, fear, or any typical human thinking/ideas. There was just BEING. The human world (in a very matter-of-fact way) appeared extraordinarily condensed and limited. But there were no negative or positive judgments or emotions associated with that either, nor were there emotions/desires about wanting to stay or leave. It was just "what was"... and I was simply waiting to see if the "mortals/humans" would save “this physical body” so that I would stay. It didn't matter one way or the other.

That experience left an unforgettable imprint on me... and brought me to further question everything about who we think we are and what we think we know. I don't see it as crucial that we believe anything in particular at all... nor that we do or don't do anything in particular, except for the quality of our experience here... which, like a dream, can be good or bad. We can fly or we can be chased by monsters. It's not solid or lasting or significant... and for some reason that freaks most humans out. If we can just experience and create without getting totally serious and entangled in our creations, it's really an interesting way to ride through it. Of course, if we want to be entangled and serious (and believe fully in this movie until the lights come on), that's okay too... it doesn't matter.

Of course I found it difficult to conform to rules imposed upon me by society after that realisation....my mission now is to help free others from the matrix of their own makings...return people to their natural state.

I can appreciate that. I can't seem to help but want to inspire people with ideas for removing boundaries for themselves. I've learned not to get too attached to that idea either though... or I might end up entangling myself or getting in a dance with them that I don't want to be in. In this forum, I've been on a casual mission to point out absurdities around egos and judgments... and since a lot of other people were being rowdy and cursing, I started doing it too. Sort of a way of enthusiastically making points. It's all for play... with hopefully some new perspectives getting through if they're of use to anyone. But I often think of leaving here... and dancing my energy off somewhere else.

[Scott Mayers]

....except of course if we ignore the possibility that NO logic is sufficiently powerful enough to be perfectly consistent. ...

I'd have thought Propositional Logic is perfectly consistent?

It can be demonstrated to be 'closed' or 'complete'. The problem is that the meta-proof treats "contingency" (the state of at least having one tautology proven to exist and one false) is accepted. I think that contingency itself is at LEAST inconsistent regardless of it being consistent where it is tautological. I believe that Gödel's Incompleteness is what proved this ironically. (He provided the proof for Predicate logic as being complete which is based on Propostional logic!) But he used this very logic and extensions of it (Set and Number theory) to also prove his theorem. But his own theorem then has to be up for question in its own liar paradox.

Inconsistency still rules, then regardless, and why after the early pioneers in foundational logic, including science essential with this need, gave up for a less respect for math and logic by demoting them to being interpreted as 'tools' or 'inventions' only, rather than 'discovered' reality.

NOTE that the reason Gödel asserts the condition that for "Any effectively generated formal system capable of expressing elementary arithmetic," not simply any logical system. Propositional logic is complete within its expected limitations but isn't necessarily sufficient to represent all mathematical truths.

[Arising_uk]

We must not even say that mr L Wittgenstien ....because You Are Tacit...everything else is a false interpretation.

Not that au fait with his later games but can you use this as I thought that according to you there is no knowing tacit or otherwise?

Exactly my point.

What is? That this 'programme' is not about us?

And isn't the act of perception an imagined phenomena?

I don't think so as there is no intent, it's a product of being this body. Maybe I should use sensation instead.

[Arising_uk]

And what thing is that upon which a label stuck? please explain?

Can't but I can point one out to you or stick a label on it whilst you're around.

I'm surprised you've not starved to death.

[Dontaskme]

And what thing is that upon which a label stuck? please explain?

Can't but I can point one out to you or stick a label on it whilst you're around.

So you can't explain what the thing you label is... you can only point to it.

That's IT

Nothing can be known about IT ...because it is not a thing. There is no thing here, except what is imagined.

[Dontaskme]

That is awesome!! And delightful to hear from a fellow human! My experience of nothingness was in my late-twenties.

But from my earliest impressions (even as a baby before I learned to speak), I had a sense that humans didn't know what they were doing. I felt sorry for them and wanted to comfort them. They seemed so fearful... and limited. My path to adulthood was always dancing with increasing awareness and exploration (more than human knowledge), which eventually led me to a lot of hallucinogenic use in my mid-twenties... further blowing the doors off of this reality.

Then in my late-twenties, my glimpse of nothingness came during an incident where I lay dying for about 24 hours before help arrived. I was actually bleeding slowly to death such that my veins were collapsing. Something instinctively told me to "shut down" my body's operations to minimal (I don't know how I did that, but I did). The energy/space(?) that I seemed to be merging into was vast and undefined. There were no judgments, structure, resistance, emotions, fear, or any typical human thinking/ideas. There was just BEING. The human world (in a very matter-of-fact way) appeared extraordinarily condensed and limited. But there were no negative or positive judgments or emotions associated with that either, nor were there emotions/desires about wanting to stay or leave. It was just "what was"... and I was simply waiting to see if the "mortals/humans" would save “this physical body” so that I would stay. It didn't matter one way or the other.

That experience left an unforgettable imprint on me... and brought me to further question everything about who we think we are and what we think we know. I don't see it as crucial that we believe anything in particular at all... nor that we do or don't do anything in particular, except for the quality of our experience here... which, like a dream, can be good or bad. We can fly or we can be chased by monsters. It's not solid or lasting or significant... and for some reason that freaks most humans out. If we can just experience and create without getting totally serious and entangled in our creations, it's really an interesting way to ride through it. Of course, if we want to be entangled and serious (and believe fully in this movie until the lights come on), that's okay too... it doesn't matter.

I can appreciate that. I can't seem to help but want to inspire people with ideas for removing boundaries for themselves. I've learned not to get too attached to that idea either though... or I might end up entangling myself or getting in a dance with them that I don't want to be in. In this forum, I've been on a casual mission to point out absurdities around egos and judgments... and since a lot of other people were being rowdy and cursing, I started doing it too. Sort of a way of enthusiastically making points. It's all for play... with hopefully some new perspectives getting through if they're of use to anyone. But I often think of leaving here... and dancing my energy off somewhere else.

I can identify with everything you've said with compassion and empathy, my fellow human. I'm also intrigued why some are able to see through the illusion while others don't or don't want to admit it.

Never dabbled in consciousness altering substances, didn't need them, was a natural high, still am kind of person. Couldn't cope with any more surprises especially if they are pleasurable, Can't take too much of that stuff...lol
I am familiar with the absolute sense of pure helplessness and lack of control coupled with the urge to completely surrender at those life or death critical times of life..have been there myself...it's a very surreal moment; once I was suddenly surrounded by the most unbelievable serene,blissful calming, warming most divine presence of pure love ..after a traumatic experience....funny how that happens to us, and wonder where that comes from. But it's proves one thing, there is nothing ever to fear in life, I've heard dying soldiers on the battle field talk of this too just as they are about to die. It appears that all is well at all times. Life is a gift, certainly.

When you say ''But I often think of leaving here... and dancing my energy off somewhere else'' I think why bother, you'll only get same where ever you go, might as well stay where you are, there is nowhere to go anyway...


You say...'' since a lot of other people were being rowdy and cursing,''...yes, this happens all the time, often we are not interested in other peoples ideas, rather just engaging with others just for confirmation of our own ideas. No matter how one tries to break the mould of usual belief systems. Some belief systems flow together effortlessly' mix and blend as they move toward the ocean. While other belief systems clash violently making groaning and grinding sounds as they move effortlessly toward the ocean. Such is the nature of human interaction...it is what it is...life dancing it's dance.

[Dontaskme]

But from my earliest impressions (even as a baby before I learned to speak), I had a sense that humans didn't know what they were doing. I felt sorry for them and wanted to comfort them. They seemed so fearful... and limited. My path to adulthood was always dancing with increasing awareness and exploration (more than human knowledge), which eventually led me to a lot of hallucinogenic use in my mid-twenties... further blowing the doors off of this reality.

Yeah, reality...and the humans endeavor to understand it, using the mind as the only tool available, which then separates reality into a conceptual context. As soon as that is done reality is no more.The 'reality' that mind has created and is attempting to understand exists only within it's own imagination. Yeah, you do kind of feel a bit sorry for humans...it's like the ''scream painting'' scenario, ... I too get the urge to give people a hug, to spend a moment or two in complete silence and at the same time dissolving into the abyss of real raw reality.