Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Scott Mayers
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by Scott Mayers »

Obvious Leo wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote: And since they would be the arbiters of how your government would operate, these 'owners' become our government without the people's consent or power to alter.
I was following you just fine, Scott, until you got to this bit. I thought you were offering a critique of the hypothetical economic system which Bob was advocating but all along you were talking about the one we've already got.
True. But Bob is advocating to conserve this behavior and even enhancing it to the extreme.
Obvious Leo wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:"profit", this is a belief in finding any means to get something for nothing.
Making money out of making money is an ancient American tradition, mate, and when you accumulate too much foreign debt you can simply print more dollars and thus make all the poor countries pick up your tab. Are you suggesting that this might not be very fair?
Yes. But this is why those like the original Christians recognized the problem and disallowed their followers from "profit" [usury]. Its ironic how they've found a renewed reversal of this in the West. Printing more dollars is the same as depreciating the value of the dollar, not actually adding more 'free' money. Only those who do it without fair accounting cause the problem when they do it to profit on it appearing initially as meaning the same value before that addition. It's called counterfeiting and is not respected no matter whether a person creates fake money or some government doing it without being transparent to allow it to be interpreted as its proper value when first used.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by Obvious Leo »

It brought the Roman Empire to its knees, Scott, and the American Empire will fall just as surely for exactly the same reason. In the good old days of Imperial Rome they called it "debasing the coinage".

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"....George Santayana
Scott Mayers
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by Scott Mayers »

Obvious Leo wrote:It brought the Roman Empire to its knees, Scott, and the American Empire will fall just as surely for exactly the same reason. In the good old days of Imperial Rome they called it "debasing the coinage".

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"....George Santayana
And these too remain cyclic throughout history, even when we are aware of the lessons in history.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by Obvious Leo »

Indeed. All of human history tells the same story and this applies across all cultures. The wealth and power of a society becomes increasingly more concentrated into fewer and fewer hands until the society reaches a breaking point and self-destructs. In all of human history this trajectory has never been any different and some might say that societies inevitably fall victim to their own success. However the Roman playwright Plautus had a more sophisticated understanding of the nature of the upright ape which is reflected back to us in this simple biological truth.

"Homo hominis lupus est"....Man is the wolf of man.
bobevenson
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by bobevenson »

As I've mentioned before, I'm the only person on Earth who can even properly define economics, and I guarantee you that you have never heard this definition from any economics professor or anybody else for that matter. Economics is the allocation of property and labor, nothing more and nothing less, just eight simple words. Everything
else is subsidiary.
raw_thought
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by raw_thought »

From the guy that did not know who Keynes was! Why is it that the ones that know the least brag the most?
bobevenson
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by bobevenson »

raw_thought wrote:From the guy that did not know who Keynes was! Why is it that the ones that know the least brag the most?
"Keynes's influence waned in the 1970s, partly as a result of problems with inflation that began to afflict the Anglo-American economies from the start of the decade and partly because of critiques from Milton Friedman and other economists who were pessimistic about the ability of governments to regulate the business cycle with fiscal policy." -Wikipedia. Keynes was an economic idiot, and Milton Friedman an economic genius. By the way, I'm not bragging about my definition of economics; as Bob the Baptist, the new guru, the modern messiah, the wizard of Ouzo, and a divinely inspired prophet of all things spiritual, political and economic, I am stating an absolute fact.
raw_thought
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by raw_thought »

Well OK you do know how to google an answer when asked a question.
raw_thought
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by raw_thought »

You said that you are the only person on earth that can define economics. Ummm thats not bragging????
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by raw_thought »

Keynes was an idiot???? The man that rescued us from the great depression. WW2 also helped. That was because it had a Keysian effect on the economy. Spending money to employ people making weapons. Even tho weapons are not consumer goods.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by Obvious Leo »

raw_thought wrote:Keynes was an idiot???? The man that rescued us from the great depression. WW2 also helped. That was because it had a Keysian effect on the economy. Spending money to employ people making weapons. Even tho weapons are not consumer goods.
The curious thing about economics is that as long as people are busy it doesn't much matter what they're busy doing. The most certain drivers of economic growth are catastrophes such as war, hurricanes, floods etc. If your city is in economic decline the surest way to reverse this trend is to nuke it and start all over again. This gets everybody busy putting Humpty-Dumpty back together again.

Since humanity is facing its greatest natural disaster in history we can look forward to rosy times ahead.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by Scott Mayers »

bobevenson wrote:As I've mentioned before, I'm the only person on Earth who can even properly define economics, and I guarantee you that you have never heard this definition from any economics professor or anybody else for that matter. Economics is the allocation of property and labor, nothing more and nothing less, just eight simple words. Everything
else is subsidiary.
I was stating the intentional purpose for Economics that is in ALL of my texts. Of course it is also the allocation of property, etc, but the reason we even HAVE to determine how to allocate resources is that we have unlimited wants in a limited world. What part of this do you disagree with? Do you think we humans do not want without end? Do you think that our world is unlimited? If you want to argue a problem with something I say, attend to what I say about something you have a problem with.

If we already get everything we want without having to be concerned about allocating resources, etc, we have no need to discuss it as we'd have no problems.If everyone gets what they want for the wanting, you might be right. But I see that you actually may be interpreting the whole of reality as an optimist and this only indicates that you likely benefit in certain ways when being unchallenged by entities that appear to be taking it away from you personally. However, the vast majority suffer to thinkers such as you as your optimism is based on your position of power to benefit by others' losses. You believe that you have "earned" your worth in isolation to others like a dumb beauty pageant winner who thinks they've somehow 'earned' their Ms Universe position on some realistic merit of their own with disrespect to the actual people who voted for them for nothing more than their unearned beauty.

If you want an entertaining take on this, check out Pink Floyd, particularly "The Wall", to which the character of Pink is empowered more as the people (fans) prop him up superficially to such a point that he completely despises them for their very stupidity to not recognize how truly unqualified he is to be anyone's hero. The 'story' of the Wall entertains how some accidentally rise to the top when people blindly believe in hero worship of the optimist's priority to attend only to ones' selfish WILL. It's too complex to summarize here what is all wrong with your thinking. But it leads to governments that act in severe disrespect to the majority of people (thus the democratic WILL of the population traded for the selfish WILL of the specifically privileged).
bobevenson
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by bobevenson »

Outside of the free air we breathe, there's a demand, but limited availability, of everything else. Demand and supply curves intersect at the price that everything else costs. That's economics, my friends, and anybody that interferes with it in the form of things like price controls or minimum wage legislation is engaging in the misallocation of resources.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by Scott Mayers »

bobevenson wrote:Outside of the free air we breathe, there's a demand, but limited availability, of everything else. Demand and supply curves intersect at the price that everything else costs. That's economics, my friends, and anybody that interferes with it in the form of things like price controls or minimum wage legislation is engaging in the misallocation of resources.
Okay, I just thought of an interesting analogue to which I'd like to see how you'd respond:

Imagine a building to which can represent a small world. This building used to be an apartment complex but was sold off as condos. The condos act as independent owners but the general spaces and upkeep requires some form of cooperation in order to provide for maintenance, etc. So imagine in this building since each condo owner has to contribute to the effort, a meeting takes place to decide upon which someone like you mentions that it would be better if each of us be allowed to sell off a part of the services (like heat, laundry, electricity, garbage disposal, etc) and a right to sell of any or all parts of our own portion of ownership of our property. To you, this is ideal as the incentive for others to own these things will encourage them to competitively do better.

Now things work out fine initially but one year the general economy is beginning to suffer and it is getting difficult to assure everyone is paying their fees (taxes). So under desperation, one owner decides to opt to sell their portion of hallway space to some janitorial company. They learn that such a company is able to hire cheap labor and would be able to do the job more efficiently than the ones at present through the coalition. It sames him the higher fees that he'd normally have to contribute. The same is sold off by this person or others with regards to the laundry services or their particular use of them. At first it works and so others envious of the money some of these people have saved begins to do the same. In time all the hallways are owned and all the services as well.

Then, the next year, the economy is still down and so even the owned up utilities and hallway companies decide to raise their charges since they can't feel it is their right to do so and they argue they need the money to hire the demand of the workers they hire to do the upkeep. At first people begin to complain but you remind them that they can handle it. Besides, everyone already sold off their rights to the hallways, except for me in the center of the complex. Then one day, as I'm leaving my suite, I begin to attempt to leave the building when I'm stopped by one of the owners of the hallway spaces in front of all the suites between me and the outside doors. They ask that since I'm still requiring to walk through their territory that they have a right to toll me for a part of the cleanup costs.

Can you see where this is going?

In this imaginary scenario, when everything is absolutely favored to be 'owned' up, this leads to inevitable abuses, a lack of solidarity to common concerns and eventually a higher, not lower, cost by the ones having just power to take advantage of the situation.

Forget the supply/demand curves. When the suppliers have the absolute power, even demand no longer applies without the representatives of such demands to actually have any power in reality. You have no social mechanism in your ideal to address the social concerns. People also pay attention only to benefits and ignore the loses. You require a government to assure that 'owners' abide to losses as much as to benefits.

Abuses happen in both large or small governments. I don't like how bureaucracy can act in bad ways either. Yet I'd still prefer having them even for the sake of at least having a hope to improve upon them. Your idea only destroys those possibilities with certainty.
bobevenson
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Re: Nonprofit Organizations Are the Bane of Civilization

Post by bobevenson »

I'm sorry, Scott, but I just don't seem to understand what you're talking about. If you kept your argument in real-world terms, I might be able to respond. I will say you can't forget supply and demand curves. That would be like telling a physicist to forget about gravity.
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