Philosophy Now Forum

bergie15 wrote:If our choices are limited, then that really isn't free will at all.

Why not? Even Buridan's Ass has a free-choice and appears to use it's will freely.

Dalek Prime wrote:

raw_thought wrote:There are two options.
1. Everything is physical,obeys cause and effect and there is no free will.
OR
2. Consciousness is supernatural (it does not obey physical laws such as cause and effect) and therefore free will is possible.

Or limited choice, and free will to choose that. As I said somewhere before, I can decide to be a bodybuilder, but I can't decide to want to be a bodybuilder, if I'm so disinclined.

Acting contrary to what one desires is not relevant to free will.
Perhaps you are referring to Einstein's quote about free will. However, read the first part and not just where he quotes Schopenhauer.

raw_thought wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:

raw_thought wrote:There are two options.
1. Everything is physical,obeys cause and effect and there is no free will.
OR
2. Consciousness is supernatural (it does not obey physical laws such as cause and effect) and therefore free will is possible.

Or limited choice, and free will to choose that. As I said somewhere before, I can decide to be a bodybuilder, but I can't decide to want to be a bodybuilder, if I'm so disinclined.

Acting contrary to what one desires is not relevant to free will.
Perhaps you are referring to Einstein's quote about free will. However, read the first part and not just where he quotes Schopenhauer.

I beg to differ. If I can't, say, freely choose to be attracted to men, because I am heterosexual, I'd say free will is blocked, and I lack it. My free will is limited.

And I was thinking of Metzinger, who's actually studied this, not Einstein or Schopenhauer.

"Honestly, I cannot understand what people mean when they talk about the freedom of the human will.I have a feeling for instance, that I will something or other;but what relation this has with freedom I cannot understand at all.I feel that I will light my pipe and I do it;but how can I connect this up with the idea of freedom? What is behind the act of willing to light the pipe? Another act of willing? [infinite regress] Schopenhaur once said,"man can do what he will but cannot will what he wills."
Einstein

Ah, yes, very similar. Metzinger carries it much further in The Ego Tunnel. Well worth the read, if you're interested.

Since you mentioned homosexuality,I will answer. My daughter is gay. My answer to her? I hate liver. I do not eat liver. However, that is not a judgement about liver. If you like liver,I am not saying that loving it makes you inferior. ALL I AM SAYING is that liver will never pass thru my lips. Similarly, a guy kissing me grosses me out. But if you like kissing guys that is cool!

My daughter woke me up! About irrational social conventions. I am 57 and so old school.* Unfortunately, it took her to wake me up!
* I still think that "old school" has value. Respect, honor etc are not just words!

raw_thought wrote:Since you mentioned homosexuality,I will answer. My daughter is gay. My answer to her? I hate liver. I do not eat liver. However, that is not a judgement about liver. If you like liver,I am not saying that loving it makes you inferior. ALL I AM SAYING is that liver will never pass thru my lips. Similarly, a guy kissing me grosses me out. But if you like kissing guys that is cool!

I hate liver. It would be great if I had a choice in flavors and textures I could choose to enjoy.Then I could choose to like it as much as ice cream. As to kissing men, I guess if I could choose to enjoy them as much as ice cream as well, well, more fun for me. But that choice I lack as well, and I'll just have to put up with liking attractive women. (Oh, the hardships I endure lol.)

My wife and I use a word, "watermelon ". When she asks me if I like a particular food (and I do not hate it, or like it) I say "watermelon ".

raw_thought wrote:My wife and I use a word, "watermelon ". When she asks me if I like a particular food (and I do not hate it, or like it) I say "watermelon ".

Funny, that. I'm never quite sure if I like or dislike watermelon. I like it's thirst quenching qualities, but after that, the taste? I'm not quite so certain. Not that it has anything to do with anything, but lately I've been craving pineapple. And one winter(!) I knocked back I don't know how many popsicles. Just craved them, one after another.

Maybe you're pregnant, mate. The same thing happened to my missus with No 2 son.

Obvious Leo wrote:Maybe you're pregnant, mate. The same thing happened to my missus with No 2 son.

Popsicles or pineapple? I had a thing for peanut butter cups too, then one day I bit into one and was revolted. Haven't had one since.

Dalek Prime wrote:

Obvious Leo wrote:Maybe you're pregnant, mate. The same thing happened to my missus with No 2 son.

Popsicles or pineapple? I had a thing for peanut butter cups too, then one day I bit into one and was revolted. Haven't had one since.

Pineapple. Ir's a very multi-purpose fruit, is a pineapple. If you have a dog who's acquired the disgusting habit of eating its own shit then put a bit of fresh pineapple in its food. It'll never do it again.

Obvious Leo wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:

Obvious Leo wrote:Maybe you're pregnant, mate. The same thing happened to my missus with No 2 son.

Popsicles or pineapple? I had a thing for peanut butter cups too, then one day I bit into one and was revolted. Haven't had one since.

Pineapple. Ir's a very multi-purpose fruit, is a pineapple. If you have a dog who's acquired the disgusting habit of eating its own shit then put a bit of fresh pineapple in its food. It'll never do it again.

Now that is a worthwhile tip. I hate it when dogs eat their own fecal matter.

raw_thought wrote:All I am saying is that it is logically impossible for consciousness to create thoughts because no one can be conscious of a thought before one thinks it. I am making no claims as to how the brain works. How the brain performs calculations is not part of this debate.

If you cannot know the actual complete facts of the matter, concerning how the human mind works, how then can you be certain that any particular portion of how it works, that you believe is the case, is certainly the case. In other words you can't necessarily understand consciousness or thoughts, so how could you possibly say for certain how they fit together, logically.

What you mean to say, to my way of thinking, so as to actually be in line with philosophy, is that: If what you believe about the mind in terms or consciousness and thoughts are actually the case, then it's logically impossible. For one to say anything other than that, is taking a leap of faith, purely conjecture, god, anyone?