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Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:00 pm
by raw_thought
Ironically, the foundation of materialism is subjectivity. I do not perceive neurons firing if I am not subjectively aware of them firing. Via scientific instruments etc.
One can call a belief in qualia as pure empiricism!
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:19 pm
by Ginkgo
raw_thought wrote:Ginkgo wrote:raw_thought wrote:The visualized triangle is a subjective experience. No one can see my triangle except me. It is a private experience, a quale.
The problem is that the above would create a huge problem for neuro-science. Qualia is considered to be a quality of experience, not the experience itself. Imagining a triangle can be explained in terms of cause and effect. In other words, in terms of neural mechanisms. Qualia are non-reducible, non-physical properties of experience. If all experiences were regarded as non-reducible, non-physical then we couldn't have a science of consciousness.
It might create difficulties but the truth usually does. It is the obvious truth that no one other then myself can see my visualized triangle.
Yes, but that doesn't make the subjective experience of a visualized triangle an example of qualia.
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:21 pm
by raw_thought
My visualized triangle is subjective and private. Subjective and private are qualia properties.
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:23 pm
by raw_thought
Thank you for debating me with class. Usually, the name calling would have already started. Unfortunately, I got to go to work. I'll be back!
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:25 pm
by raw_thought
raw_thought wrote:" a conceived triangle is not just 'firing neurons', and no materialist will say it is."
Hobbes choice
Actually anyone that does not believe in qualia (materialists) must say that my visualized triangle is and only is neurons firing. Materialists believe that only objective facts exist. My visualized triangle is subjective and private. Two properties that the materialist rejects as nonsense.
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:37 pm
by raw_thought
I just got out of the shower. While taking the shower I realized that you might think that I was implying that you engage in name calling and that I am relieved that you have stopped. That is not what I meant. I was referring to most posters when they engage in this contentious battle.
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:07 pm
by Ginkgo
raw_thought wrote:My visualized triangle is subjective and private. Subjective and private are qualia properties.
Well, all I can do is repeat my previous post. Yes, all cognitive process are subjective and private. If such processes such as a visualized triangle are an example of qualia then they are non-reducible and non-physical, therefore don't have a physical explanation. You can claim this without any problem, but the implications are that we can't have a science of consciousness.
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:04 pm
by Wyman
My visualized triangle is subjective and private. Subjective and private are qualia properties.
'If qualia exist, then they are subjective and private.' If we grant you that, it does not imply that if something is subjective and private, then it is qualia. I.e., 'subjective and private' are necessary conditions of qualia, not sufficient.
Unless you say, 'Well, but 'subjective and private' is equivalent to 'qualia.' In which, case, you are begging the question again.
Saying that we cannot know the precise relationship between our subjective experience and the world is an epistemological statement. Saying that subjective experience and the world must therefore be two different substances is a metaphysical statement. Many would agree with the former, but dispute the latter. Saying that 'qualia exist' and 'qualia are nonphysical, whereas the rest of the world is physical' is tantamount to making the metaphysical claim.
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:24 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
Wyman wrote:Firing neurones are part of you; not separate from ~"you", and so saying firing neurones cause me to see a triangle is absurd unless you are going to say what you mean by "you" as distinct from the neurones.
What you are in effect saying is that "YOU" are not a physical object.
That's a great way of looking at it.
I don't think he'll see that he assumes dualism to prove dualism (but he does)
We can but try!
I won't hold my breath. This sort of Cartesian Dualism is so ingrained in the dominant religious ideologies, that it's an endemic assumption. People do not understand they are making the mistake.
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:25 pm
by Arising_uk
raw_thought wrote:My visualized triangle is subjective and private. Subjective and private are qualia properties.
Then how do you know its a triangle?
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:22 am
by Hobbes' Choice
Arising_uk wrote:raw_thought wrote:My visualized triangle is subjective and private. Subjective and private are qualia properties.
Then how do you know its a triangle?
The idea of qualia is used to describe a feeling or sensation, the experience of which cannot be reliably conveyed to another.
Most commonly things like pain, and colour fit the brief.
Raw-thought does not appreciate the role of "qualia" in philosophy. A triangle is no mystery; certainly not a good example in any sense of a quale. (qualum?)
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:29 pm
by raw_thought
If an experience (I think we can agree that my visualized triangle and pain is something one experiences ) is private it is by definition a quale.
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:31 pm
by raw_thought
I am not saying that a triangle is mysterious!!! Where did you get that? I am saying that my visualized triangle is purely subjective. One cannot see a triangle by looking into my brain.
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:38 pm
by Ginkgo
raw_thought wrote:If an experience (I think we can agree that my visualized triangle and pain is something one experiences ) is private it is by definition a quale.
Sorry to keep harping on with this but, the visualization of a triangle doesn't always equate to qualia.
Re: What are concepts according to materialism?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:59 pm
by raw_thought
If my experience of a visualized triangle is private, it is by definition a quale.
A quale is defined as an intrinsically private experience.
A materialist believes that there are no private experiences.
For him there is no subjective reality. For him only objective reality exists. Therefore, for him it is impossible to visualize a triangle because my visualized triangle is dramatically subjective, it is private.