Faith

[David Handeye]

Jesus was a Gnostic. His place and time was familiar with Greek philosophy, Buddhism etc. Jesus was primarily Jewish. However he co-opted other views.
Unfortunately, Roman elite Christians (interested in bureaucracy) interpreted Christ's message in bureaucratic language. God-Jesus- King-Lords- peasants. In other words facilitating a sociological world view. Jesus preached GOD IS Within You! (Luke 17:21 and ye are Gods). That had to be suppressd. Constantine when he wanted a universal religion went with those that favored bureaucracy.
In other words a slaves version of what Christ taught rather that what God taught, see me in you! Christianity is not about being a slave (conventional Christianity ).It is about the freedom and grace of seeing God!

but what kind of Bible do you have over there? I really don't know where you write from, and what you report being the Scripture, but in Italy, in every version of the Bible, (CEI, TILC, etc.), Luke 17,21 is GOD IS AMONG YOU, not within you. I noticed a lot of errors in your reading or interpretation of Holy Scripture. (I mean on this forum, generally)

[raw_thought]

King James....We can debate later if the King James's version is gibberish later.

[Immanuel Can]

King James may not be gibberish, but it's antiquated. And that means that some of the words have changed meaning, and some of the idioms have shifted as well. It's best left to the antiquarians these days, for precisely the reason that it's no longer comprehensible to modern persons.

Lots of good, new versions exist, all of which have modern, idiomatic translation for our age. And always the Greek is available to check through concordances. So you can easily settled the "within/among" debate with reference to those resources -- that is, if you want to find out that "within" should have been translated "among" in the first place, which is precisely what you will find.

[raw_thought]

Jesus was a Gnostic.

No one who had any idea at all about the Biblical Jesus Christ would think this was true.


y.

Tell that to Pagels and many other scholars.

[Immanuel Can]

Tell that to Pagels and many other scholars.

If you knew much about the scholarship on Gnosticism, you'd know that a lot of it is highly skeptical of Pagels. And with good reason. Her work on Gnostics has some merit, but her glosses on Christianity are really badly wide of the mark. But you'd actually have to read her -- and to know Christianity -- to know that.

[Greatest I am]

Are the quotes I gave a part of Christian doctrine or not?

The quotes don't mean what the Gnostics would like to make them mean. This happens because Gnostics don't read the context. They just pinch out individual verses and bend them to the Gnostic doctrines.

So no: the words are from Christian doctrine, but you make the meaning not of Christian doctrine.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

Gnostics are too trusting of the fantasies of their own minds, and to undisciplined by the text. And if I "question everything," then I also question Gnosticism.

And when I do, I find it sadly lacking. In fact, I've probably read more of the seminal Gnostic texts than you have, and I'll bet there are some ways in which you do not know your own beliefs as well as I do, actually.

So I've given Gnosticism a hearing...I just don't hear much worth listening to. It's not Christianity, by any reasonable definition, for sure;.

I agree. We are not homophobic and misogynous.

If those qualities are not what the earth wants then it will die and people will just have to live with homophobia and misogyny.

You are likely right that you would know more about our myths than I as I care more for the morality they have and not the myth they created to put against the immoral Christian ones.

You are correct that Christianity does not teach what those quotes about Jesus I gave teach and that Gnostic Christians do.

In that sense, we are following Jesus' teachings a lot more than Christians do. Priests will not teach the truth as there is no money in it. They prefer to lie for the cash.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

It's not Christianity, by any reasonable definition, for sure;.

I think this is largely correct. Gnostic Christianity is an historical phenomenon. Insofar as one reason for the early councils was to declare Gnostic interpretations as heretical, the church effectively defined Christianity out from under the feet of the Gnostic.

From under both the Gnostic Christians and Jews. Remember that Christianity used the Jewish synagogue for almost all of the first century.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Jesus was a Gnostic. His place and time was familiar with Greek philosophy, Buddhism etc. Jesus was primarily Jewish. However he co-opted other views.
Unfortunately, Roman elite Christians (interested in bureaucracy) interpreted Christ's message in bureaucratic language. God-Jesus- King-Lords- peasants. In other words facilitating a sociological world view. Jesus preached GOD IS Within You! (Luke 17:21 and ye are Gods). That had to be suppressd. Constantine when he wanted a universal religion went with those that favored bureaucracy.
In other words a slaves version of what Christ taught rather that what God taught, see me in you! Christianity is not about being a slave (conventional Christianity ).It is about the freedom and grace of seeing God!

I agree. Christianity gives two options. Slave to God or slave to sin.

Jesus preached that we should be our own masters.

Gnostic Christians agree.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Jesus was a Gnostic. His place and time was familiar with Greek philosophy, Buddhism etc. Jesus was primarily Jewish. However he co-opted other views.
Unfortunately, Roman elite Christians (interested in bureaucracy) interpreted Christ's message in bureaucratic language. God-Jesus- King-Lords- peasants. In other words facilitating a sociological world view. Jesus preached GOD IS Within You! (Luke 17:21 and ye are Gods). That had to be suppressd. Constantine when he wanted a universal religion went with those that favored bureaucracy.
In other words a slaves version of what Christ taught rather that what God taught, see me in you! Christianity is not about being a slave (conventional Christianity ).It is about the freedom and grace of seeing God!

but what kind of Bible do you have over there? I really don't know where you write from, and what you report being the Scripture, but in Italy, in every version of the Bible, (CEI, TILC, etc.), Luke 17,21 is GOD IS AMONG YOU, not within you. I noticed a lot of errors in your reading or interpretation of Holy Scripture. (I mean on this forum, generally)

Jesus said that the kingdom of God was both within us and all around us but that most do not see it. I do.

If God is among us, are you seeing God? If not then you are one of the ones Jesus was talking about.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Follow the logic of those quotes.

If you become a brethren to Jesus and have his Christ mind, then you too will see God's kingdom here and now.

Think best of all possible worlds. It is irrefutable that we live in the best of all possible worlds because this is the only possible world.

Regards
DL

[David Handeye]

Jesus said that the kingdom of God was both within us and all around us but that most do not see it. I do.

If God is among us, are you seeing God? If not then you are one of the ones Jesus was talking about.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Follow the logic of those quotes.

If you become a brethren to Jesus and have his Christ mind, then you too will see God's kingdom here and now.

Think best of all possible worlds. It is irrefutable that we live in the best of all possible worlds because this is the only possible world.

Regards
DL

Matteo 6,22 "La lucerna dei corpo è l'occhio; se dunque il tuo occhio è chiaro, tutto il tuo corpo sarà nella luce" (The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be in the light.)

Luca 17,21"Nessuno potrà dire: 'Eccolo qua' oppure 'Eccolo là', perché il regno di Dio è già in mezzo a voi" (Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is among you.)

[Immanuel Can]

David:

You're going to find that if you argue with a Gnostic you'll get nowhere. It won't be because you're wrong, but because they do not bind themselves to the ordinary rules of logic or language. They're so convinced that whatever they believe is a product of higher illumination, that whatever you say just won't count -- just like words of Christ don't count to them. What counts to them instead is how they can rewrite the meaning of those words to serve Gnosticism.

So, for example, it won't matter that you can conclusively show the right translation is not "within," but "among." And it won't matter that the quotations he uses are ripped screaming out of any context, doing violence to the situation and theological context in which they were said. And it won't matter that Jesus clearly said other things that Gnostics can't use. What matters is his limited stock of quotations, and that he can use them to convince the uninformed that Christ backs his play.

It's just how the Gnosticism thing works...logic's got nothing to do with it. Esoteric knowledge, held by an imperious elite and condescendingly dispensed to the unilluminated (i.e. us) is what they believe in. And that's the reality of what you're dealing with.

[Greatest I am]

Jesus said that the kingdom of God was both within us and all around us but that most do not see it. I do.

If God is among us, are you seeing God? If not then you are one of the ones Jesus was talking about.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Follow the logic of those quotes.

If you become a brethren to Jesus and have his Christ mind, then you too will see God's kingdom here and now.

Think best of all possible worlds. It is irrefutable that we live in the best of all possible worlds because this is the only possible world.

Regards
DL

Matteo 6,22 "La lucerna dei corpo è l'occhio; se dunque il tuo occhio è chiaro, tutto il tuo corpo sarà nella luce" (The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be in the light.)

Luca 17,21"Nessuno potrà dire: 'Eccolo qua' oppure 'Eccolo là', perché il regno di Dio è già in mezzo a voi" (Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is among you.)

Exactly bur without a Christ mind, most do not see it.

Let me add to your quotes with the progression.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

David:

You're going to find that if you argue with a Gnostic you'll get nowhere. It won't be because you're wrong, but because they do not bind themselves to the ordinary rules of logic or language. They're so convinced that whatever they believe is a product of higher illumination, that whatever you say just won't count -- just like words of Christ don't count to them. What counts to them instead is how they can rewrite the meaning of those words to serve Gnosticism.

So, for example, it won't matter that you can conclusively show the right translation is not "within," but "among." And it won't matter that the quotations he uses are ripped screaming out of any context, doing violence to the situation and theological context in which they were said. And it won't matter that Jesus clearly said other things that Gnostics can't use. What matters is his limited stock of quotations, and that he can use them to convince the uninformed that Christ backs his play.

It's just how the Gnosticism thing works...logic's got nothing to do with it. Esoteric knowledge, held by an imperious elite and condescendingly dispensed to the unilluminated (i.e. us) is what they believe in. And that's the reality of what you're dealing with.

My last post shows just how much of a liar you are.

But thanks for attempting a character assassination and talking about me instead of issues. It shows your mind.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Regards
DL

[Immanuel Can]

My last post shows just how much of a liar you are.

Actually, it shows exactly what I said. That Gnostics distort, rather than conform their views to the Bible. And anyone who reads the context of the very passages you cite can see for him or herself that it's so.

But thanks for attempting a character assassination and talking about me instead of issues. It shows your mind.

Your comment here is truly ad hominem, and has the very features you decry. On the other hand, I said nothing about your personal character, and referred only to the verifiable features of Gnosticism itself as exhibited in your own messages.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

If Gnosticism is an idea, then what I did is discuss ideas. But into which category does your last spout of personal venom fit?

[raw_thought]

Tell that to Pagels and many other scholars.

If you knew much about the scholarship on Gnosticism, you'd know that a lot of it is highly skeptical of Pagels. And with good reason. Her work on Gnostics has some merit, but her glosses on Christianity are really badly wide of the mark. But you'd actually have to read her -- and to know Christianity -- to know that.

Strawman. Yes, the issue as to whether Jesus was a Gnostic is contentious. I was merely objecting to your accusation that anyone that claimed that Jesus was a Gnostic was ignorant.
Thanks for the ad hominum I actually read her.