Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:13 pm**

Besides, don't you guys have anything better to do than shit all over someone who has already been shit all over plenty. find a hobby or something.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:22 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:04 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:49 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:41 pm ...if there is a God, then, yes, he's let me down on multiple occasions.
So...

The God you don't know, have no relationship with, and whom, in fact you love to abuse and hate on...

...didn't give you things you demanded of Him...

...and you say He's "let you down."

Surprise, suprise, Gary.
I didn't ask to be thrown into the dumpster of a world he created

Of course you didn't. Nobody was asked. But it's only a "dumpster" if you choose to make it one.

Let's take the story the Bible gives us, just for a second. Indulge me.

It tells us that the God of the universe wanted there to be a "Gary." He deliberately created "Gary," and wanted "Gary" to become blessed and happy in this life, to mature and develop as a human being, and eventually, He wanted "Gary" to live forever. The universe needs a "Gary," according to God; and He would not have a universe without one. "Gary" is infinitely precious. Moreover, "Gary" is here for a reason...to become the kind of person who can be fit for that destiny. But "Gary" is not a pawn; he has choices to make toward that end. And the chief choice is whether to accept that calling at all.

You were wanted. Your existence is not an accident, and is not a tragedy. Ultimately, it's story of heroism and triumph. And it's a story that will last forever, as will the universe, with "Gary" as one of its proudest features.

Now let's take Gary's story, the one you are clinging to right now.

"Gary" is a cosmic accident. He was "thrown into" existence, by forces he cannot understand, and put here for no reason. "Gary" has no work to do here, nothing to learn, and no possibility of choice. "Gary" is going to die, and his molecules will be scattered among the stars for an eternity of which he will be utterly unaware, forever. For the present, "Gary" suffers. Too bad for "Gary." There is nothing he can do, nothing he can learn, nothing he can decide that will reverse the stream of his misery or make anything he does count toward any ultimate good. All he can do is shake his tiny fist at the uncaring sky, curse the God he refuses to believe in, and die. And nobody owes him an accounting for any of that.

You're living in the second story, Gary. That's why you're miserable. And for some reason, you seem determined to remain there. I can't imagine why. It promises you nothing, it's giving you nothing, and you are clearly not enjoying the ride.

But there's no surprise there. None at all.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:23 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:41 pm
Sorry to be "childish" but if there is a God, then, yes, he's let me down on multiple occasions. I see no reason for you to take issue with my legitimate complaints. If you think it's "childish" to complain about bad fortune, then that's your problem, not mine.

Gary, lets be logical, you as the purveyor of knowledge, is to know you know things.
Now, you either know God, or you don't know God...there simply is no IF about it, you need to make up your mind about what you know for certain. In making up your mind about what you know for certain, there can only be a God you know for certain, and NEVER an ''IF'' God

So why not trust in what you know for certain Gary? trust in that only, trust only in that which you know for certain Gary, that's what I do.

To use the word ( IF ) as in IF there is a God; is to admit to yourself a not knowing for certain.
(IF) is just a belief, it's an assumption or hypothesis without proof. In knowing something for absolute certainty, is to experience that something for yourself through direct personal experience, it is to know that fire burns, and that water is wet, and that sugar is sweet, and that love hurts like hell....these things you can know for absolute certainty.

Trust only in what you are absolutely certain of, and those things will be the only real truth worth relying on for certain, everything else will be uncertain, especially when it comes to bad fortune, or good fortune. All I know for certain Gary, is that only me myself and I can make me happy. I know that for absolute certain.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:29 pm**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:22 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:04 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:49 pm
So...

The God you don't know, have no relationship with, and whom, in fact you love to abuse and hate on...

...didn't give you things you demanded of Him...

...and you say He's "let you down."

Surprise, suprise, Gary.
I didn't ask to be thrown into the dumpster of a world he created
Of course you didn't. Nobody was asked. But it's only a "dumpster" if you choose to make it one.

Let's take the story the Bible gives us, just for a second. Indulge me.

It tells us that the God of the universe wanted there to be a "Gary." He deliberately created "Gary," and wanted "Gary" to become blessed and happy in this life, to mature and develop as a human being, and eventually, He wanted "Gary" to live forever. The universe needs a "Gary," according to God; and He would not have a universe without one. "Gary" is infinitely precious. Moreover, "Gary" is here for a reason...to become the kind of person who can be fit for that destiny. But "Gary" is not a pawn; he has choices to make toward that end. And the chief choice is whether to accept that calling at all.

You were wanted. Your existence is not an accident, and is not a tragedy. Ultimately, it's story of heroism and triumph. And it's a story that will last forever, as will the universe, with "Gary" as one of its proudest features.

Now let's take Gary's story, the one you are clinging to right now.

"Gary" is a cosmic accident. He was "thrown into" existence, by forces he cannot understand, and put here for no reason. "Gary" has no work to do here, nothing to learn, and no possibility of choice. "Gary" is going to die, and his molecules will be scattered among the stars for an eternity of which he will be utterly unaware, forever. For the present, "Gary" suffers. Too bad for "Gary." There is nothing he can do, nothing he can learn, nothing he can decide that will reverse the stream of his misery or make anything he does count toward any ultimate good. All he can do is shake his tiny fist at the uncaring sky, curse the God he refuses to believe in, and die. And nobody owes him an accounting for any of that.

You're living in the second story, Gary. That's why you're miserable. And for some reason, you seem determined to remain there. I can't imagine why. It promises you nothing, it's giving you nothing, and you are clearly not enjoying the ride.

But there's no surprise there. None at all.

God can stop with the shit whenever he so chooses. He apparently wants to keep the shit up. His choice. Fuck him, then. Just take me out of this "B" movie. I want no part of him. He doesn't deserve it. What do you want from me? Money? I've given plenty already. I have no more to give. Sorry.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:51 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:04 pm
I didn't ask to be thrown into the dumpster of a world he created for what reason no one can understand. I've endured his shit fest. He wants my worship and appreciation, he'll need to earn it. Sorry.

No one asks or consents to be born into this meat grinder. The only reason and reason alone that you are here at all, is because two people decided to have sexual intercourse, and you were the result of their desire for sex. You were the result of two people seeking pleasure. Those two people were the only reason for you being here, there is absolutely nothing else you can know about the reason, purpose or the why as to your being here, other than that simple knowing that two people desired pleasure. So blaming your being here on something else you can know nothing about is futile. Why not simply be angry at your parents instead?

And since you know how you came to be, this knowledge has been very useful for you when it comes to your own decisions about procreation. You are already in the know as to whether you want to impose life on another human being, and as far as I remember, you have chosen not to, which is wise already knowing what an ordeal being alive can be for many of us who didn't even ask or consent to being here in the first place.

That's what it is like to be a human being. Humans rarely think about what life is like for others, they usually only think about life as it happening to them in the moment, they usually are only concerned by what they are getting out of it, even if that means they are knowingly making another human being to live in the world, and even that is what they are getting out of it. But they do not seem to be much aware or concerned about what that other human being will be getting out of it once it is born, they do not seem to think that far ahead of what's happening in the moment of pleasure seeking, even if making babies is another form of pleasure seeking.

The very idea that the human being they are making is not the one who is choosing or consenting to be born, never seems to cross their mind...not until it does.

And let me tell you this..when I really think about the none consentual none chosen birth...it literally horrifies me.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:59 pm**

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:51 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:04 pm
I didn't ask to be thrown into the dumpster of a world he created for what reason no one can understand. I've endured his shit fest. He wants my worship and appreciation, he'll need to earn it. Sorry.
No one asks or consents to be born into this meat grinder. The only reason and reason alone that you are here at all, is because two people decided to have sexual intercourse, and you were the result of their desire for sex. You were the result of two people seeking pleasure. Those two people were the only reason for you being here, there is absolutely nothing else you can know about the reason, purpose or the why as to your being here, other than that simple knowing that two people desired pleasure. So blaming your being here on something else you can know nothing about is futile. Why not simply be angry at your parents instead?

My parents were just doing what anyone would do under those circumstances. If there's no God, then fine. Let's just cut with all the stupid pretensions to religion. Fuck whoever or whatever created this world. I don't blame humans. I blame whatever, whoever, created this world and if there is no creator, then let it be understood by ALL. There is no creator. To be honest, if I had created such a fucked up world, I'd be looking to dodge responsibility for it too. So I guess I can't blame God either. God seriously needs to work on his world-building skills though. And people need to stop kissing his ass as far as I'm concerned. Had he done a good job, then kiss his ass if you want.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:20 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:59 pm
My parents were just doing what anyone would do under those circumstances. If there's no God, then fine. Let's just cut with all the stupid pretensions to religion. Fuck whoever or whatever created this world. I don't blame humans. I blame whatever, whoever, created this world and if there is no creator, then let it be understood by ALL. There is no creator. To be honest, if I had created such a fucked up world, I'd be looking to dodge responsibility for it too. So I guess I can't blame God either. God seriously needs to work on his world-building skills though. And people need to stop kissing his ass as far as I'm concerned. Had he done a good job, then kiss his ass if you want.

We cannot know the creator of the created. We can only know the created as being self-evident, insofar as you already exist, you didn't create yourself, you just came into being fully formed as a human baby, you had no part in making you happen. But even though you know the mechanism of how you were conceived, you can never comprehend the actual original beginning or ending of existence itself who got the whole ball rolling in the first place. You can only be the rolling ball, so to speak.

You can only know that you exist, you cannot know you don't exist, so if you know you exist, and you know the biological process of how another one can exist, then it's up to you the knower to want another one to exist or not. The only blame that can be placed is on the knower of it's own existence, for only in knowing, can one choose to impose that knowing on another, or not choose to impose knowing on another.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:56 pm**

tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:48 am Granted it makes no difference to the behaviour whether you act according to what you believe is authority or revelation, and that we can say either means we behave the same way, I won't be adopting your sense of synonymous though. You could correctly point out the guillotine and firing squad are functionally equivalent, but I don't accept they are the same thing.

Useless tautology is useless. You can take either one of the positions (below) as your premise and defend it till the cows come home.

1. Any two phenomena in spacetime are different once you ignore all of their similarities.
2. Any two phenomena in spacetime are the same once you ignore all of their differences.

You @ 10 seconds ago are "different" to you @ 5 seconds ago.
You @ 10 seconds ago are "the same" as you @ 5 seconds ago.

This sort of sophistry doesn't really lead anywhere useful.

Given the choice between death by guilotine; or death by firing squad I strongly prefer the third option: neither.

They are "the same" from the lens of "anti-preference."

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:30 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:56 pmUseless tautology is useless. You can take either one of the positions (below) as your premise and defend it till the cows come home.

1. Any two phenomena in spacetime are different once you ignore all of their similarities.
2. Any two phenomena in spacetime are the same once you ignore all of their differences.

You @ 10 seconds ago are "different" to you @ 5 seconds ago.
You @ 10 seconds ago are "the same" as you @ 5 seconds ago.

This sort of sophistry doesn't really lead anywhere useful.

What are your criteria for usefulness?

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:32 pm**

tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:30 pm What are your criteria for usefulness?

Anything useful meets my criteria for usefulness!

What are your criteria for something qualifying as a criterion? Oh no! Recursive language is recursive.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:46 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:32 pm
tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:30 pm What are your criteria for usefulness?

Anything useful meets my criteria for usefulness!

Exactly. We are talking about your personal use of language. If we can't reach some agreement, however vague, there is no hope of effective communication. You stick with your interpretation of synonymous, tautology, authority, revelation or any word you choose and I'll stick with mine and let's just throw rocks at each other.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:32 pmWhat are your criteria for something qualifying as a criterion?

I rest my case.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:51 pm**

tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:46 pm Exactly. We are talking about your personal use of language. If we can't reach some agreement, however vague, there is no hope of effective communication.

I keep hearing this lie. We are currently succeeding at effective vague communication.

tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:46 pm You stick with your interpretation of synonymous, tautology, authority, revelation or any word you choose and I'll stick with mine and let's just throw rocks at each other.

Why? To what end?

tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:46 pm
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:32 pmWhat are your criteria for something qualifying as a criterion?
I rest my case.

You rest your case? Why were you even making a case?

I asked you the exact same question you asked me! I asked you a question about your criteria!

I already told you what my criteria are before you even asked me. My criteria are neither death by guillotine nor death by firing squad.

Do you not consider those two things to be criteria; and therefore exactly the same from the lens of criteria?

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:55 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:51 pm
tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:46 pm We are talking about your personal use of language. If we can't reach some agreement, however vague, there is no hope of effective communication.
I keep hearing this lie. We are currently succeeding at effective vague communication.

Then we disagree about the meaning of effective.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:51 pm
tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:46 pm You stick with your interpretation of synonymous, tautology, authority, revelation or any word you choose and I'll stick with mine and let's just throw rocks at each other.
Why? To what end?

My point exactly.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:57 pm**

tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:55 pm Then we disagree about the meaning of effective.

Maybe we do.
Maybe we don't.

We are yet to establish whether we trying to agree; or disagree with each other.

We are yet to establish a common purpose for the interaction.

tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:55 pm
Why? To what end?
My point exactly.

Your point? Why are you making a point?

I don't understand the point of your point. Maybe you want to start there?

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:30 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:57 pm
tillingborn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:55 pm Then we disagree about the meaning of effective.
Maybe we do.

We do.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:57 pmMaybe we don't.

No, we do.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:57 pmWe are yet to establish whether we trying to agree; or disagree with each other.

That has nothing to do with my sense of effective.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:57 pmWe are yet to establish a common purpose for the interaction.

I don't think we need a common purpose. I'm quite happy for you to have your own reasons for responding, and I will have mine. There is no need for them ever to overlap.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:57 pmYour point? Why are you making a point?

I don't understand the point of your point.

So much for effective communication. At least as I mean 'So much for', 'effective' and 'communication'.

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