Philosophy Now Forum

chaz wyman wrote:Why has the US government been supporting those oppressive governments and has been actively suppressing democracy all over the world for 60 years?

I don't know if you've been clinically diagnosed with dementia or not, but your thinking is clearly fuzzy. The problem is that the U.S. keeps trying to spread democracy in the world when it should be trying to spread the concept of human rights. All democracy does is gives 51% of the people the authority to chop the heads off the other 49%.

bobevenson wrote:The problem is that the U.S. keeps trying to spread democracy in the world when it should be trying to spread the concept of human rights.

Well bloody hell you've actually hit on something quite apposite that I would agree with.

bobevenson wrote:... The problem is that the U.S. keeps trying to spread democracy in the world ...

Where?

The U.S. government (and I'm sure every other government on Earth) is run by incompetent fools. Under Evensonomics, the only proper function of government is social integration; government should not own, operate, support or promote anything!

Arising_uk wrote:

bobevenson wrote:... The problem is that the U.S. keeps trying to spread democracy in the world ...

Where?

Please, have you already forgotten the purple fingers of people voting in Iraq???

bobevenson wrote:Please, have you already forgotten the purple fingers of people voting in Iraq???

Thats not installing democracy, thats appealing to your electorate. As I've said before, to do that you'd have to do what the British Empire did and actually stay the course for a couple of hundred years.

But I accept that in the last few years you have learnt a little from your previous history of supporting and funding dictatorships in your national interest. Although you still appear fairly myopic about who is or isn't one.

Arising_uk wrote:

bobevenson wrote:Please, have you already forgotten the purple fingers of people voting in Iraq???

Thats not installing democracy, thats appealing to your electorate. As I've said before, to do that you'd have to do what the British Empire did and actually stay the course for a couple of hundred years.

But I accept that in the last few years you have learnt a little from your previous history of supporting and funding dictatorships in your national interest. Although you still appear fairly myopic about who is or isn't one.

Botha, Pinochet, Mubarek, Shah Pahvali, Saddam Hussein, Noriega, Nguyễn Văn Thiệu, Syngman Rhee, ... the list just goes on and on

Arising_uk wrote:

bobevenson wrote:Please, have you already forgotten the purple fingers of people voting in Iraq???

Thats not installing democracy, thats appealing to your electorate. As I've said before, to do that you'd have to do what the British Empire did and actually stay the course for a couple of hundred years.

But I accept that in the last few years you have learnt a little from your previous history of supporting and funding dictatorships in your national interest. Although you still appear fairly myopic about who is or isn't one.

The purple finger wasn't our idea, it was Iraq's to keep people from voting twice. Evensonomics says that we should pull our troops out of every country in the world, and let them fight it out if necessary. We should only protect our critical national interests. Another thing, we should immediately leave Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. No lease negotiated in 1903 lasts forever, regardless of what some goddamn document says.

bobevenson wrote:The purple finger wasn't our idea, it was Iraq's to keep people from voting twice. Evensonomics says that we should pull our troops out of every country in the world, and let them fight it out if necessary. We should only protect our critical national interests. Another thing, we should immediately leave Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. No lease negotiated in 1903 lasts forever, regardless of what some goddamn document says.

No argument with most of that but lol as the above was, in the main, done exactly because you thought it in your critical national interest, i.e. cheap oil.

Evensonomics says that we should pull our troops out of every country in the world, and let them fight it out if necessary. We should only protect our critical national interests.

It's in our critical national interest that the world not spin out of control and in to widespread catastrophic violence, as it did twice in the 20th century, back when we used to think the way you apparently still do.

Three times in the 20th century (count'em, three) the U.S. had to help save Europe from itself. If we'd followed your advice, which was widely available at the time, the world would now be a dramatically different, and much worse place. For all of us, the U.S. too.

Like it or not, we now live in a global village and there is no place to hide from other people's problems. As the world's richest nation we have both an obligation, and a self interest, in remaining involved around the world.

Hopefully this involvement would be primarily diplomatic and financial, but the fact is nobody else is in a position to play the security role we do.

As a recent example, without the U.S there would have been no air campaign in Libya, and Ghaddifi would still be in power, after slaughtering god knows how many civilians in Benghazi.

This example of successful repression would then have reverberated through out the Arab spring. Enslaved Arabs are not in our national interest.

Typist wrote:Three times in the 20th century (count'em, three) the U.S. had to help save Europe from itself. If we'd followed your advice, which was widely available at the time, the world would now be a dramatically different, and much worse place. For all of us, the U.S. too....

Three? I'm pretty sure you didn't win WWI and you'd not have joined in in WWII unless Jap had not attacked you. Russia, Hitlers stupidity and the Soviets is what saved our bacon but I'll admit to them needing your supplies but it was their 20,000,000 dead that made the difference.

You mean when you bombed the Serbs, our allies and anti-fascist in WWII and supported the Croats, Hitlers allies and pro-fascist in WWII?

Like it or not, we now live in a global village and there is no place to hide from other people's problems. As the world's richest nation we have both an obligation, and a self interest, in remaining involved around the world.

On the whole I think it a good attitude, now if you'd just stop thinking your self-interest is your obligation we might well get somewhere.

Hopefully this involvement would be primarily diplomatic and financial, but the fact is nobody else is in a position to play the security role we do.

But do we need NATO anymore? As there is no credible threat like the Soviets were.

As a recent example, without the U.S there would have been no air campaign in Libya, and Ghaddifi would still be in power, after slaughtering god knows how many civilians in Benghazi.

So instead we've slaughtered god-knows how many as no-one is counting. With once again no idea of who we are actually putting in power.

This example of successful repression would then have reverberated through out the Arab spring. Enslaved Arabs are not in our national interest.

And yet you are still supporting the Egyptian military, you supported the Saudis in putting down the Bahrains and still support the House of Saud and all across the old Soviet states you are supporting corrupt and repressive regimes, much like a re-run of S.America.

Don't mistake me, I'm fairly sanguine about the American Empire but its the delusions of its citizens that irks me.

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Point in case.

Arising_uk wrote:
Don't mistake me, I'm fairly sanguine about the American Empire but its the delusions of its citizens that irks me.

I have noticed. But what do these "delusions" have anything to do with you? To me it appears that that sentiment is like every other....meaning it sounds to me you want to be master and commander and dictate how people should live their lives. Same voice different face.

artisticsolution wrote:I have noticed. But what do these "delusions" have anything to do with you? To me it appears that that sentiment is like every other....meaning it sounds to me you want to be master and commander and dictate how people should live their lives. Same voice different face.

I'm not the one stating the bullshit? I just reply to it. Do I original post against the US? I think not.