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Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:11 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 6:36 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 6:28 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 5:03 pm
Consciousness is not a material property, just like "mind" and "brain" are not the same. Determinism allows the material to exist, but simply expresses gratuitous disbelief in the immaterial real.
Ironically, there's no "person" to express such a thing, because "personhood" is an immaterial property.
True. Consciousness is not a material property.
Here's the key: is it a REAL property? Is it a REAL thing?
If it is, Determinism isn't true.
However, brain and consciousness are clearly connected.
Yes, but not in any conventional way. It's a marvel how the mind keeps operating when the brain is, say, injured, dysfunctional, incorrectly formed...experts have a word for it: they call it "neuroplasticity." But that doesn't even quite capture it. There are actually people who are devoid of large portions of brain material, yet who are as intelligent as you or me. How is that possible, if "brain" were the same as "mind'? It wouldn't be.
It's possible because the brain is able to overcome deficiencies by using other physical parts to make up for deficiencies or damage. It is constantly connecting and reconnecting. However, brain damage late in life tends to leave permanent mental issues. Plasticity, lessens as we grow older. It's very possible that complete decay of the brain would leave us mentally non-existent and be the end of us.
As to whether the mind outlives the brain...that's a different question, too.
One that is unsettled as well.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:45 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:11 pm
As to whether the mind outlives the brain...that's a different question, too.
One that is unsettled as well.
It's certainly settled, one way or the other.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:52 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:45 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:11 pm
As to whether the mind outlives the brain...that's a different question, too.
One that is unsettled as well.
It's certainly settled, one way or the other.
Maybe. Maybe not.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:40 am
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:45 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:11 pm
One that is unsettled as well.
It's certainly settled, one way or the other.
Maybe. Maybe not.
Not maybe.
Something is the case. Either there's an afterlife, or there's not. There's no half-way measures about that.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:49 am
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:40 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 11:45 pm
It's certainly settled, one way or the other.
Maybe. Maybe not.
Not maybe.
Something is the case. Either there's an afterlife, or there's not. There's no half-way measures about that.
Yes. Something is the case, however, if there's no existence of our mental experiences after death, then it is never "settled". No one returns from death to tell the living whether there is an "afterlife" or not and if there is no "afterlife" then we ourselves will never "find out" or have the matter "settled" for us either. It is an unknown. A 'black box', if you like.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:51 am
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:49 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:40 am
Not maybe.
Something is the case. Either there's an afterlife, or there's not. There's no half-way measures about that.
Yes. Something is the case, however, if there's no existence of our mental experiences after death, then it is never "settled".
Oh, it's settled, Gary. You can be sure of that.
The fact that you don't know doesn't change that.
No one returns from death to tell the living whether there is an "afterlife" or not and if there is no "afterlife" then we ourselves will never "find out" or have the matter "settled" for us either. It is an unknown. A 'black box', if you like.
Except for the Resurrection. But you'll ignore that, I'm sure.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:53 am
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:51 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:49 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:40 am
Not maybe.
Something is the case. Either there's an afterlife, or there's not. There's no half-way measures about that.
Yes. Something is the case, however, if there's no existence of our mental experiences after death, then it is never "settled".
Oh, it's settled, Gary. You can be sure of that.
The fact that you don't know doesn't change that.
No one returns from death to tell the living whether there is an "afterlife" or not and if there is no "afterlife" then we ourselves will never "find out" or have the matter "settled" for us either. It is an unknown. A 'black box', if you like.
Except for the Resurrection. But you'll ignore that, I'm sure.
If there was a resurrection of Jesus. No one knows if there was or not.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 1:06 am
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:53 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:51 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:49 am
Yes. Something is the case, however, if there's no existence of our mental experiences after death, then it is never "settled".
Oh, it's settled, Gary. You can be sure of that.
The fact that you don't know doesn't change that.
No one returns from death to tell the living whether there is an "afterlife" or not and if there is no "afterlife" then we ourselves will never "find out" or have the matter "settled" for us either. It is an unknown. A 'black box', if you like.
Except for the Resurrection. But you'll ignore that, I'm sure.
If there was a resurrection of Jesus. No one knows if there was or not.
Apparently, lots of people do. Just not you.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 1:13 am
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 1:06 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:53 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:51 am
Oh, it's settled, Gary. You can be sure of that.
The fact that you don't know doesn't change that.
Except for the Resurrection. But you'll ignore that, I'm sure.
If there was a resurrection of Jesus. No one knows if there was or not.
Apparently, lots of people do. Just not you.
That's possible. Or it may not be the case.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 4:02 am
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 1:13 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 1:06 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 12:53 am
If there was a resurrection of Jesus. No one knows if there was or not.
Apparently, lots of people do. Just not you.
That's possible. Or it may not be the case.
Well, you'll find out.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 4:19 am
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 4:02 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 1:13 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 1:06 am
Apparently, lots of people do. Just not you.
That's possible. Or it may not be the case.
Well, you'll find out.
What if I don't?
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 4:22 am
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 4:19 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 4:02 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2026 1:13 am
That's possible. Or it may not be the case.
Well, you'll find out.
What if I don't?
You will.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 4:24 am
by Gary Childress
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 4:47 am
by Walker
Reaction in action:
Edited at poster’s request, by the poster, to make room for repetition.
Re: HUMANS DO NOT ACT, BUT REACT, SO MUCH FOR FREE WILL
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2026 4:58 am
by Immanuel Can