Philosophy Now Forum

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 1:12 am Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements such ""I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me" literally and out of context because they believe it justifies them in claiming an ultimate exclusivity which was not His intent at all. An exclusivity which is built upon some variation of the concept of substitutionary atonement: "An individual must believe that Jesus paid for their sins". A concept that is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus. Despite all this, they fervently believe that it is true because it is self-serving to do so.

For all intents and purposes, the vast majority of Christians are the modern-day Pharisees: Thinking themselves righteous when they are the "white-washed tombs", if not "wolves in sheep's clothing" that Jesus sternly warned against.

I could have written that. I agree! It’s refreshing that another sees it. Human sacrifice is obviously immoral, as is shifting blame to a scapegoat. Why can’t more people see this?

Perspective wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:14 pm Interesting. I hadn’t considered adolescence as a time of repression but I can see that. “Simpletons,” may be the majority who repeatedly resisted growing pains, so are still in childish stages. Children need to go along with parents to survive… & some feel the need to go along with herd mentalities. It’s the easiest path of least resistance - thus, highway to hell.

A more apt term is "retard," or "retarded," from the French, en retard, to be late.
Late bloomers....or those who have not gone through the rites of passage from adolescence into adulthood.
No father figures contributes to this developmental retardation.
Feminization of Man.
Masculinity has been abstracted and monopolized by institutions.
No male or female, can challenge institutions, nor complete the rites of passage.

Why do you think genetics determines what stage you will settle? A gene cannot be expressed without environmental factors, especially psychologically.

Because genetics determines psychosomatic constitution.
How much physical and psychological suffering an individual can endure.

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 12:08 pm

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 1:12 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Apr 24, 2025 8:05 pm
Yes. One does wonder which utterances in the Gospels are actually said by Jesus, and which by later commentators.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements such ""I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me" literally and out of context because they believe it justifies them in claiming an ultimate exclusivity which was not His intent at all. An exclusivity which is built upon some variation of the concept of substitutionary atonement: "An individual must believe that Jesus paid for their sins". A concept that is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus. Despite all this, they fervently believe that it is true because it is self-serving to do so.

For all intents and purposes, the vast majority of Christians are the modern-day Pharisees: Thinking themselves righteous when they are the "white-washed tombs", if not "wolves in sheep's clothing" that Jesus sternly warned against.

I have difficulty with substitutionary atonement. It reminds one of human sacrifice. Moses understood enough of God to not sacrifice a human being as atonement, and that was progress. The Christian doctrine of the Atonement makes sense to me only if all human grief and pain is taken to be Christ.

The Christian doctrine of the Atonement makes sense to me only if all human grief and pain is taken to be Christ.

Not sure what you have in mind here. Can't think of any way for substitutionary atonement to ultimately make sense: Be it human, animal, grain or what have you.

Some of the later OT prophets recognized this. For example:
Isaiah 1
11“What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
Says the LORD.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12“When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13“Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14“I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15“So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.
16“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
17Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
18“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;

Ultimately the only way for an individual to atone for their own sins is for them to make themselves righteous; make themselves clean.

Jesus understood this. Jesus echoed and extended the underlying concepts of the above in His teachings. Interestingly quotes such "No one comes to the Father, except through me" fits in with this.

For all intents and purposes, the teachings of Christianity are antithetical to this.

Perspective wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:17 pm

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 1:12 am Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements such ""I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me" literally and out of context because they believe it justifies them in claiming an ultimate exclusivity which was not His intent at all. An exclusivity which is built upon some variation of the concept of substitutionary atonement: "An individual must believe that Jesus paid for their sins". A concept that is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus. Despite all this, they fervently believe that it is true because it is self-serving to do so.

For all intents and purposes, the vast majority of Christians are the modern-day Pharisees: Thinking themselves righteous when they are the "white-washed tombs", if not "wolves in sheep's clothing" that Jesus sternly warned against.

I could have written that. I agree! It’s refreshing that another sees it. Human sacrifice is obviously immoral, as is shifting blame to a scapegoat. Why can’t more people see this?

Why can’t more people see this?

In the words of Jesus, they "have eyes but cannot see". Jesus had these words for those who do not understand Him:

John 8
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:19 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 12:08 pm

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 1:12 am

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements such ""I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me" literally and out of context because they believe it justifies them in claiming an ultimate exclusivity which was not His intent at all. An exclusivity which is built upon some variation of the concept of substitutionary atonement: "An individual must believe that Jesus paid for their sins". A concept that is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus. Despite all this, they fervently believe that it is true because it is self-serving to do so.

For all intents and purposes, the vast majority of Christians are the modern-day Pharisees: Thinking themselves righteous when they are the "white-washed tombs", if not "wolves in sheep's clothing" that Jesus sternly warned against.

I have difficulty with substitutionary atonement. It reminds one of human sacrifice. Moses understood enough of God to not sacrifice a human being as atonement, and that was progress. The Christian doctrine of the Atonement makes sense to me only if all human grief and pain is taken to be Christ.

The Christian doctrine of the Atonement makes sense to me only if all human grief and pain is taken to be Christ.

Not sure what you have in mind here. Can't think of any way for substitutionary atonement to ultimately make sense: Be it human, animal, grain or what have you.

Some of the later OT prophets recognized this. For example:
Isaiah 1
11“What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
Says the LORD.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12“When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13“Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14“I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15“So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.
16“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
17Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
18“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;

Ultimately the only way for an individual to atone for their own sins is for them to make themselves righteous; make themselves clean.

Jesus understood this. Jesus echoed and extended the underlying concepts of the above in His teachings. Interestingly quotes such "No one comes to the Father, except through me" fits in with this.

For all intents and purposes, the teachings of Christianity are antithetical to this.

I mean all the people who willingly sacrifice their lives for others are Christ. Jesus of Nazareth is the iconic man.

I swear to give all I own to any Jesus believing Christian. No guff.

That person must be as described by the Bible, which states that any person of faith or belief could do all that Jesus did and more. Even move a mountain.

I will settle for even a small, but real, miracle.

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:46 pm

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:19 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 12:08 pm

I have difficulty with substitutionary atonement. It reminds one of human sacrifice. Moses understood enough of God to not sacrifice a human being as atonement, and that was progress. The Christian doctrine of the Atonement makes sense to me only if all human grief and pain is taken to be Christ.

The Christian doctrine of the Atonement makes sense to me only if all human grief and pain is taken to be Christ.

Not sure what you have in mind here. Can't think of any way for substitutionary atonement to ultimately make sense: Be it human, animal, grain or what have you.

Some of the later OT prophets recognized this. For example:
Isaiah 1
11“What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
Says the LORD.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12“When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13“Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14“I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15“So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.
16“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
17Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
18“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;

Ultimately the only way for an individual to atone for their own sins is for them to make themselves righteous; make themselves clean.

Jesus understood this. Jesus echoed and extended the underlying concepts of the above in His teachings. Interestingly quotes such "No one comes to the Father, except through me" fits in with this.

For all intents and purposes, the teachings of Christianity are antithetical to this.

I mean all the people who willingly sacrifice their lives for others are Christ. Jesus of Nazareth is the iconic man.

Sorry this is still too vague. Can you elaborate? It would be helpful if you would just spell it all out for me.

Pistolero wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:50 pm

Perspective wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:14 pm Interesting. I hadn’t considered adolescence as a time of repression but I can see that. “Simpletons,” may be the majority who repeatedly resisted growing pains, so are still in childish stages. Children need to go along with parents to survive… & some feel the need to go along with herd mentalities. It’s the easiest path of least resistance - thus, highway to hell.

A more apt term is "retard," or "retarded," from the French, en retard, to be late.
Late bloomers....or those who have not gone through the rites of passage from adolescence into adulthood.
No father figures contributes to this developmental retardation.
Feminization of Man.
Masculinity has been abstracted and monopolized by institutions.
No male or female, can challenge institutions, nor complete the rites of passage.

Interesting word meaning of retard.
It could be argued that in feminizing men, & the homosexuality of men, there is a spirit of the Oedipus complex. And the way to weaken the foundation of society is to mess with the family… also base government on super PACS / corporations.

Institutions become protectors & providers, for women.
Her children are raised in accordance with the State's values.
All biological males become demoted to beta and omega status.....and are forced to adopt feminine methods of seduction....thinning, judging etc.

Traditional families are a threat to a culturally and racially heterogeneous system.

Males have made themselves obsolete.....in times of peace and prosperity.
In times of war, things change.
So, globalization is how this particular meme attempts to eliminate all sources of competition.

Male inventions, such as contraceptives and abortions, contribute to the "liberation of females" from natural limits to their promiscuity.

Obviously there's a lot to unpack here, concerning the Feminization of Man.
My thesis has developed for over 20 years.
Females are ideal citizens in a heterogeneous system....
Complacent, easily indoctrinated, not as challenging to authority, naturally inclined to diversify their sexual optinos....etc.


-------------------------------------------------------
This postmodern nihilistic trend is a continuation of Abrahamic spiritual nihilism.
In Abrahamism the institution is replaced by God.....god is the father of all children. females are his concubines.
This is clear in the Biblical narration of Mary being impregnated by a "spirit"...by God.
Joseph is, essentially, cucked, and forced to raise another man's child.
It is, also, evident, when Jesus, supposedly, gathers his disciples, taking them away from their biological families.
This would have been a severe blow to the family, at that time. taking away a mature male, decreased its ability to sustain itself.

Bible is full of anti-family, anti-biological identity passages.

God of Abraham is the "alpha" - an entity with no biological identifiers. An abstraction, i.e., idea.
Nihilism creates ideas with no external referents...it converts everything into abstractions and then inverts them - contradicting experienced existence.

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 2:01 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:46 pm

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:19 pm

The Christian doctrine of the Atonement makes sense to me only if all human grief and pain is taken to be Christ.

Not sure what you have in mind here. Can't think of any way for substitutionary atonement to ultimately make sense: Be it human, animal, grain or what have you.

Some of the later OT prophets recognized this. For example:
Isaiah 1
11“What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
Says the LORD.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12“When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13“Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14“I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15“So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.
16“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
17Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
18“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;

Ultimately the only way for an individual to atone for their own sins is for them to make themselves righteous; make themselves clean.

Jesus understood this. Jesus echoed and extended the underlying concepts of the above in His teachings. Interestingly quotes such "No one comes to the Father, except through me" fits in with this.

For all intents and purposes, the teachings of Christianity are antithetical to this.

I mean all the people who willingly sacrifice their lives for others are Christ. Jesus of Nazareth is the iconic man.

Sorry this is still too vague. Can you elaborate? It would be helpful if you would just spell it all out for me.

Siegfried Sassoon does it better than I can:

https://poets.org/poem/redeemer

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 2:01 am
I mean all the people who willingly sacrifice their lives for others are Christ. Jesus of Nazareth is the iconic man.

Sorry this is still too vague. Can you elaborate? It would be helpful if you would just spell it all out for me.
[/quote]

Iconic man!

Jesus is to bring Armageddon and mass murder.

Do we want our iconic heroes to be genocidal moral monsters?

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 11:33 am

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 2:01 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:46 pm
I mean all the people who willingly sacrifice their lives for others are Christ. Jesus of Nazareth is the iconic man.

Sorry this is still too vague. Can you elaborate? It would be helpful if you would just spell it all out for me.

Siegfried Sassoon does it better than I can:

https://poets.org/poem/redeemer

Still no idea of what that has to do with the "The Christian doctrine of the Atonement" which typically entails something along the lines of the following:

According to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, atonement in Christian theology is "man's reconciliation with God through the sacrificial death of Christ.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation ... #Atonement

Would it kill you to spell out what you have in mind?

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 3:09 pm

ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 2:01 am
I mean all the people who willingly sacrifice their lives for others are Christ. Jesus of Nazareth is the iconic man.

Sorry this is still too vague. Can you elaborate? It would be helpful if you would just spell it all out for me.

Iconic man!

Jesus is to bring Armageddon and mass murder.

Do we want our iconic heroes to be genocidal moral monsters?
[/quote]

Seems like you've confused yourself as to who wrote what. You post seems aimed toward a statement made by Belinda.

God, in the Abrahamic tradition (spiritual nihilism), also represents the antithesis of existence.
If existence is multiplicity, then the god of the Bible, is a singularity; if existence is mutable, then it is immutable; if existence is imperfect, then it is perfection; if existence is unjust and 'evil' then it is just and good; if existence does not require a creator, it is the creator...

It seduces all those who harbor a secret resentment towards nature and how it has determined them to be; all those you subconsciously feel that they've been unjustly treated.

By the way....the Abrahamic definition of the cocnept 'god' is not the only one.
It is, presently, the dominant one...after over 2 thousand years of brainwashing...but it isn't an objective definition, but an inter-subjective superstition.