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Oh, yes please! Maybe photons emitting from electrons in two separate atoms separated by the Pacific Ocean.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:17 pmDo you want me to give you an example of events?
Like that, like tick-tock in a clock.attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:19 pmOh, yes please! Maybe photons emitting from electrons in two separate atoms separated by the Pacific Ocean.
This is one of the major points in solidifying the Kalam argument. If the present exists the past cannot be infinite, however the number the axiom of choice solves this provlem. The axiom basically says "given an infinite set - you can always choose an element from it."bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:53 pm Regress means the action of returning to a former state. Infinite regress means that there are infinite former states. To discuss let's move one by one to the former state. There is however a state former than any state that you assume. This means that you cannot reach to infinite former state. This means that by the reverse process, one cannot reach from an arbitrary state in the infinite former state to the current state as well. The current state exists. Therefore, infinite regress is logically impossible.
What are the points before the Big Bang? Do they exist?Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:28 pmThis is one of the major points in solidifying the Kalam argument. If the present exists the past cannot be infinite, however the number the axiom of choice solves this provlem.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:53 pm Regress means the action of returning to a former state. Infinite regress means that there are infinite former states. To discuss let's move one by one to the former state. There is however a state former than any state that you assume. This means that you cannot reach to infinite former state. This means that by the reverse process, one cannot reach from an arbitrary state in the infinite former state to the current state as well. The current state exists. Therefore, infinite regress is logically impossible.
Presuppose the infinite interval (-∞, +∞). The Real number line.
Pick any point. Call it 0. The Big Bang.
Pick another point to the right of 0. Call it NOW.
Remove 0.
Done.
All points on the interval (-∞, +∞) exist.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:30 pmWhat are the points before the Big Bang? Do they exist?Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:28 pmThis is one of the major points in solidifying the Kalam argument. If the present exists the past cannot be infinite, however the number the axiom of choice solves this provlem.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:53 pm Regress means the action of returning to a former state. Infinite regress means that there are infinite former states. To discuss let's move one by one to the former state. There is however a state former than any state that you assume. This means that you cannot reach to infinite former state. This means that by the reverse process, one cannot reach from an arbitrary state in the infinite former state to the current state as well. The current state exists. Therefore, infinite regress is logically impossible.
Presuppose the infinite interval (-∞, +∞). The Real number line.
Pick any point. Call it 0. The Big Bang.
Pick another point to the right of 0. Call it NOW.
Remove 0.
Done.
How could you reach from the infinite past to an arbitrary point you call the Big Bang?Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:32 pmAll points on the interval (-∞, +∞) exist.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:30 pmWhat are the points before the Big Bang? Do they exist?Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:28 pm
This is one of the major points in solidifying the Kalam argument. If the present exists the past cannot be infinite, however the number the axiom of choice solves this provlem.
Presuppose the infinite interval (-∞, +∞). The Real number line.
Pick any point. Call it 0. The Big Bang.
Pick another point to the right of 0. Call it NOW.
Remove 0.
Done.
The Big Bang doesn't exist yet. Until you choose 0.
With the axiom of choice. Which allows me to pick any, arbitrary point from an infinite set.
But there are an infinite number of points before any point you choose in the infinite past.
Are you going to provide an example of X event and Y event?bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:27 pmLike that, like tick-tock in a clock.attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:19 pmOh, yes please! Maybe photons emitting from electrons in two separate atoms separated by the Pacific Ocean.
The tick is X and the tock is Y.attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:27 pmAre you going to provide an example of X event and Y event?bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:27 pmLike that, like tick-tock in a clock.attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:19 pm
Oh, yes please! Maybe photons emitting from electrons in two separate atoms separated by the Pacific Ocean.
And infinite number of points after any point I choose in the infinite future.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 12:37 pmBut there are an infinite number of points before any point you choose in the infinite past.
Whatever point you choose in the infinite post there are an infinite number of points before it.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:43 pmAnd infinite number of points after any point I choose in the infinite future.
Which is why it makes no difference which point I choose as 0. ANY point will do.
-∞<-0-------------------------------------> +∞
-∞<--------------------0------------------> +∞
-∞<------------------------------0--------> +∞
Sure. And?bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:52 pmWhatever point you choose in the infinite post there are an infinite number of points before it.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:43 pmAnd infinite number of points after any point I choose in the infinite future.
Which is why it makes no difference which point I choose as 0. ANY point will do.
-∞<-0-------------------------------------> +∞
-∞<--------------------0------------------> +∞
-∞<------------------------------0--------> +∞
It means that you cannot reach from the infinite number of points before your chosen point to your chosen point.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 2:20 pmSure. And?bahman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:52 pmWhatever point you choose in the infinite post there are an infinite number of points before it.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:43 pm
And infinite number of points after any point I choose in the infinite future.
Which is why it makes no difference which point I choose as 0. ANY point will do.
-∞<-0-------------------------------------> +∞
-∞<--------------------0------------------> +∞
-∞<------------------------------0--------> +∞