Philosophy Now Forum

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:15 pm The job of the Christian is to tell, not to compel.

And now, the telling is done.

So are you done?

There are a few ways to take this and two of them made me laugh.

Janoah wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:52 pm Unless HaShem is a real Person, and actually intervened in the world to speak to Abraham in a miraculous way, it seems to me that Israel's bereft of claim to the Land.

First of all, nothing material is inherent in God.

I'm not sure what you mean by "inherent": but if you mean that God is not able to influence the material realm, then Israel's whole claim to the Promised Land is gone. For it means that God did not speak to Abraham, did not rescue anybody from Egypt, did not lead anybody through the wilderness, did not enable Joshua to conquer the Land, and did not promise Israel any future at all.

That's a very high price for a Jewish person to pay for his/her commitment to keeping God separate from the material world. Are you willing to pay that price? I can't imagine you are.

The Promised Land was promised...

By whom, to whom?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:17 pm

Janoah wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:52 pm Unless HaShem is a real Person, and actually intervened in the world to speak to Abraham in a miraculous way, it seems to me that Israel's bereft of claim to the Land.

First of all, nothing material is inherent in God.

, then Israel's whole claim to the Promised Land is gone.

We are not talking about real estate that was received from a rich relative.
Abraham did not receive the bill of sale in this case, which he must present.
Followers of Abrahamic religions can have their own sacred conclusions; they do not depend on the opinions of Jews.
For atheists, sacred texts may have no meaning at all.

For me, as a Jew, what matters is that,
"For out of Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
(Isaiah 2:3)
The historical task of the Jews is to fulfill this prediction.
If Israel is able to assert a philosophically adequate worldview, then this will be clear to the surrounding nations, and if not, then Israel’s presence in the Promised Land is in question.

Janoah wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:42 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:52 pm Will you go so far as to deny the legitimacy of Israel's claim to the Land?

Rabbi Immanuel, the crowds of Judeophobic enthusiasts do not need any proof; their lust for malice prevails over any proof.

And for those chosen ones who are not Judeophobic, it is natural for them that the Jews return to Judea.

If one denies Israel’s legitimate claim then one is Judeophobic?

And if one is Judeophobic no proof can convince?

That to question the right of Jews comes from a lustful malice?

If one is not Judeophobic one is chosen? And the chosen understand the return as natural?

Janoah, I need some clarifying midrash here!

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:25 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:17 pm

Janoah wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:56 pm
First of all, nothing material is inherent in God.

, then Israel's whole claim to the Promised Land is gone.

We are not talking about real estate that was received from a rich relative.

That would be trivial. We're talking about something far more important than that: we're talking about whether or not Abraham's children have any divine title to the Land. Right now, those stakes are not small. They've never been, in fact.

Abraham did not receive the bill of sale in this case, which he must present.
Followers of Abrahamic religions can have their own sacred conclusions; they do not depend on the opinions of Jews.
For atheists, sacred texts may have no meaning at all.

Unimportant. If HaShem has given the Land, the Land is given: no matter what anybody thinks.

For me, as a Jew, what matters is that,
"For out of Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
(Isaiah 2:3)
The historical task of the Jews is to fulfill this prediction.

Actually, no, it's not. Israel cannot make it happen. Only HaShem can make it happen. For it is not "the word of Israel" that goes forth, but "the Word of the Lord."

But the question is, will He do so through Israel, or through some other means...or has He not done it at all?

You see, if God has given the Land to Israel, that's a miracle. But if He has not, then that's a nothing. And it's a nothing, regardless of whether or not "Israel is able to assert a philosophically adequate worldview..." (whatever that might mean).

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:18 am That would be trivial. We're talking about something far more important than that: we're talking about whether or not Abraham's children have any divine title to the Land. Right now, those stakes are not small. They've never been, in fact.

Yet it goes much further than that. At the operative core of true Orthodoxy is a set of assertions, commands and prophecy-predictions. These involve not only the belief that the creator-god selected Jews and bequeathed Israel, but that the Jews were given rulership rights as God’s representatives and agents in a “divine plan” to establish not the Kingdom of Jesus but a Kingdom of the biblical Yahweh.

Traditional Judaism doesn’t simply dislike Jesus, it despises the figure as a demonic idol. Not God but diabolism. In traditional and strict Judaism “the plan’ is that the Yahwey-god will destroy the nations that worship the false idol. The Christian god and certainly Jesus is an idolatry that will eventually be overcome through ‘final wars’.

That Christian Zionists choose to ally themselves with the religious elites who despise them absolutely, and manipulate them for political-religious gain, is something incredible and strange in the extreme.

If one is “in” such belief-systems one is, I guess, subject to it all. It is not “phantasy” but “reality”.

Janoah finds himself within the land where Jewry “forced God’s hand” and enacted God’s rescinding of God-ordained Exile through the worldly process of the establishment of the State of Israel. Some traditional Orthodox groups therefore do not — cannot — justify Israel since it is seen as a false-restoration.

When one starts thinking within these terms, one immediately is subsumed in them; controlled by them. If God has created modern Israel then all the concomitant biblical predictions follow. But if God didn’t, Israel will not — cannot — stand.

You’re fucked one way or the other.

If you break out of the system — and you can —it means that you stand now on the sidelines watching the Enactment go forward. Hordes of people ‘believe it’ and also participate-generate what it tends toward.

Final, determining wars of absolute destruction if one “believes”.

At the core what is there really? The Heart of Darkness posing as the Heart of Light? Or the inverse of that sentence?

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:25 am Followers of Abrahamic religions can have their own sacred conclusions;

Quick! Let’s become Buddhists!

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:25 amIf Israel is able to assert a philosophically adequate worldview, then this will be clear to the surrounding nations, and if not, then Israel’s presence in the Promised Land is in question.

I love it! Let’s bring in Will Bouwman’s astute assertion that “philosophy is (in essence) storytelling”.

What then is a “philosophically adequate worldview”?

Strangely, as we attempt to sort through one arena of madness (Judaic-Christian prophetic belief) even when we get ourselves firmly back onto the ground, that “ground” is still subjectively determined.

“When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.”

I am determined to grow up!

Let me attempt this statement though I admit it is radical: The foundation of Judaism, that naturally informs Christianity, is not intellectually defensible. Is it philosophically defensible?

I will take on the rôle of Tightrope Walker and all eyes will focus nervously on me.

Note that Janoah cannot do it. Immanuel — hyper-Christian, more Jew than the Jew — demands a resolution of the theological proposition: Yes or No, Janoah? Did a metaphysical ruling god-entity bequeath Israel and Jewish Destiny when it landed on Abraham?

You cannot worm your way out of a solid answer. There is no “philosophical answer”. Or if there is that answer is story.

[Note: I was schooled in Zbigniew Brzezinski‘s school of geo-political story-craft].

We seem determined by imperatives that function in us unconsciously and subliminally. The overt belief — the child’s reasoning — may puncture but something underlying it maintains forward movement.

That movement has to be redirected.

[Seeds, you must have the Diagram I need here to clinch my argument …]

Well, as we know it was the Christian lands that created and now assist in protection of Israel for the Jews, thus Christ did as foretold.

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:25 am
If Israel is able to assert a philosophically adequate worldview, then this will be clear to the surrounding nations, and if not, then Israel’s presence in the Promised Land is in question.

I love it! Let’s bring in Will Bouwman’s astute assertion that “philosophy is (in essence) storytelling”.

What then is a “philosophically adequate worldview”?

Strangely, as we attempt to sort through one arena of madness (Judaic-Christian prophetic belief) even when we get ourselves firmly back onto the ground, that “ground” is still subjectively determined.

God is on the side of big battalions.

A “philosophically adequate worldview” is control of the area with superior weapons, strategy and tactics.

Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote somewhere:

We are but catfish swimming in murky waters.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:37 pm Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote somewhere:

Is that actually somebody's name, or did you just copy it from an eye test chart?

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:55 pm Is that actually somebody's name, or did you just copy it from an eye test chart?

No, it’s real. He came from a vowel-poor nation historically rich in consonants.

A final note before I go in for prayer:

This, all of this, is our misfortune but not our fault.

Take it away Manny!

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:57 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:55 pm Is that actually somebody's name, or did you just copy it from an eye test chart?

No, it’s real. He came from a vowel-poor nation historically rich in consonants.

I have never heard of him, let alone read him, but I hope what he wrote was easier to read than his name.