The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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Gary Childress
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by Gary Childress »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 12:39 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 11:29 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:14 amIt's called having an election, even if you personally might not agree with all of them.
If hiring folks to direct you is what you want, then keep doin' that.
Right, so your 'system' will be every individual (all 300 million of them) will have their own little set of laws that suit their own individual needs, and of course everyone else will stick to everyone else's individual set of laws. You are an imbecile.
He's not an "imbecile". He's saying that 300 million people ought to have the same set of laws concerning a right to "person and property" (or whatever it is that he is advocating). I'm curious if, within his framework, there is a limit to how much "property" a person can own. I believe he states that everyone owns themselves. However, does it prevent some from owning everything or so much that there is less for others who maybe work just as hard if not harder?

@Henry: If one person is very smart or whatever and comes to own all the food and everyone else only owns "themselves" then what can the other people do in exchange for food if they have no other possessions than themselves? Suppose the one who owns all the food decides to exchange food for labor on his new mansion being built. Doesn't that make everyone else his servant? And if they are his servants do they really own "themselves"?
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 12:39 pmyour 'system'
What system? I offered no system.

Let's review...
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:07 amAs long as I'm not murdering, raping, slaving, or stealing from them, my atomic pile is not their business.

As long as I'm not murdering, raping, slaving, or stealing from them, my house, and the land it sits on, is not their business.
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:18 amHow is my leaving other folks alone to live as they choose, and my expecting to be left alone to live as I choose, inconsiderate?

I fully expect for others to recognize and respect my exclusive claim to my life, liberty, and property just as I recognize and respect their exclusive claims to their own lives, liberties, and properties.

I truly can't see how folks recognizing and respecting each other's claims to their own lives, liberties, and properties can make anyone other than busybodies, murderers, rapists, thieves, and slavers miserable.
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:22 am So leave the other guy alone.
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:29 am if I willy-nilly stored lethally radioactive materials on my property, I'd be violating my neighbors' lives, liberties, and properties.
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:52 am Folks ought to have whatever laws they need.
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 11:29 am If hiring folks to direct you is what you want, then keep doin' that.
Where's the system?
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:07 pmHe's saying that 300 million people ought to have the same set of laws concerning a right to "person and property" (or whatever it is that he is advocating).
What I'm sayin': you have an exclusive natural right to your, and no one else's, life, liberty, and property.
(Is) there a limit to how much "property" a person can own.
Why would there be? If you can make it, or fairly transact for it, why would there be a limit?
I believe he states that everyone owns themselves.
Yes.
However, does it prevent some from owning everything or so much that there is less for others who maybe work just as hard if not harder?
How would someone come to justly own everything?
If one person is very smart or whatever and comes to own all the food
How does one person come to justly own all the food?
and everyone else only owns "themselves" then what can the other people do in exchange for food if they have no other possessions than themselves?
How would these folks voluntarily come to owning nuthin' at all?
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:43 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:07 pmHe's saying that 300 million people ought to have the same set of laws concerning a right to "person and property" (or whatever it is that he is advocating).
What I'm sayin': you have an exclusive natural right to your, and no one else's, life, liberty, and property.
(Is) there a limit to how much "property" a person can own.
Why would there be? If you can make it, or fairly transact for it, why would there be a limit?
I believe he states that everyone owns themselves.
Yes.
However, does it prevent some from owning everything or so much that there is less for others who maybe work just as hard if not harder?
How would someone come to justly own everything?
If one person is very smart or whatever and comes to own all the food
How does one person come to justly own all the food?
and everyone else only owns "themselves" then what can the other people do in exchange for food if they have no other possessions than themselves?
How would these folks voluntarily come to owning nuthin' at all?
Ask homeless people who owns all the food, not one person but people who are "enfranchised" by society. Ask homeless people how they came to owning "nuthin at all". When the housing crash of 2007 happened I saw people out on the street begging in casual attire that one wears when going to the grocery store. How did they come to begging on the street?

Weren't you yourself a homeless person? And when you were homeless you stated that you went to church. And the church got you stable. How can you criticize churches, Henry? You can't. They helped you and if they helped you, then you owe them their existence in exchange for your present existence. That's fine. You wish to be indebted to Churches. I wish to be indebted to society. Yes. My society is fucked up right now. We've been in more wars than any other country in the world. That needs to be fixed and Biden, as imperfect as he is, at least got us out of Afghanistan. Obama got us out of Iraq. Who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan, Henry? I recall it being the George Bush administration. Who supported that decision, Henry? I recall evangelicals being on board with Bush because he is a self-professed "Christian".

Sorry, no lies for me anymore. It's time for me to take a stand. And if it's my last stand ever it will be for world peace, and freedom to believe what our own minds and experiences lead us to believe...and that's all I can think of at this point.

I wish I could come to the defense of the Church, however, I will not lie and tell anyone that I accept Jesus as the creator of all that is. The Trinity is the biggest charade anyone has ever come up with. And some people still believe it.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:59 pm
Ask homeless people who owns all the food, not one person but people who are "enfranchised" by society.
Why are the homeless, homeless? Why are the enfranchised, enfranchised? Am I enfranchised? Are you?
Ask homeless people how they came to owning "nuthin at all".
Do you know?
When the housing crash of 2007 happened I saw people out on the street begging in casual attire that one wears when going to the grocery store. How did they come to begging on the street?
I don't know. Do you?
Weren't you yourself a homeless person?
Nope.
And when you were homeless you stated that you went to church.
Not me.
My society is fucked up right now.
How? Why?
We've been in more wars than any other country in the world.
No we haven't. The government has.
That needs to be fixed
How?
Who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan, Henry?
The folks who could draw a profit.
Who supported that decision, Henry?
Everyone who could profit.
I recall evangelicals being on board with Bush because he is a self-professed "Christian".
Yes. By the way: I'm not a Christian.
I wish I could come to the defense of the Church
Okay. I'm not sure what the Church has to do with our conversation, though.
however, I will not lie and tell anyone that I accept Jesus as the creator of all that is.
Okay. I'm not sure what Jesus has to do with our conversation, though.
The Trinity is the biggest charade anyone has ever come up with. And some people still believe it.
Okay. I'm not sure what the Trinity has to do with our conversation, though.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:23 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:59 pm
Ask homeless people who owns all the food, not one person but people who are "enfranchised" by society.
Why are the homeless, homeless? Why are the enfranchised, enfranchised? Am I enfranchised? Are you?
Ask homeless people how they came to owning "nuthin at all".
Do you know?
When the housing crash of 2007 happened I saw people out on the street begging in casual attire that one wears when going to the grocery store. How did they come to begging on the street?
I don't know. Do you?
Weren't you yourself a homeless person?
Nope.
And when you were homeless you stated that you went to church.
Not me.
My society is fucked up right now.
How? Why?
We've been in more wars than any other country in the world.
No we haven't. The government has.
That needs to be fixed
How?
Who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan, Henry?
The folks who could draw a profit.
Who supported that decision, Henry?
Everyone who could profit.
I recall evangelicals being on board with Bush because he is a self-professed "Christian".
Yes. By the way: I'm not a Christian.
I wish I could come to the defense of the Church
Okay. I'm not sure what the Church has to do with our conversation, though.
however, I will not lie and tell anyone that I accept Jesus as the creator of all that is.
Okay. I'm not sure what Jesus has to do with our conversation, though.
The Trinity is the biggest charade anyone has ever come up with. And some people still believe it.
Okay. I'm not sure what the Trinity has to do with our conversation, though.
Fair enough. I misunderstood something I recall you saying a while back about the poor needing to contact a church instead of other charities. If you want to completely extract yourself from guilt for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, then how do you intend to do that and be an American citizen at the same time?

Am I right to therefore assume that you don't consider yourself an American citizen? Or were you out vigorously protesting those wars which the democracy (or Republic or whatever that we live in) got US citizens involved in? I voiced protest on the Internet, however, I didn't attend demonstrations, I didn't throw my body in front of a parade of soldiers marching down Pennsylvania Avenue or whatever "celebration" might have occurred after the invasions were initially successful. I pay taxes. I therefore have accountability for what my society does in my name.

Do I want to disband the United States because the democracy/republic (or whatever) was run by depraved leaders? No. I'd like to see those leaders who have repeatedly gotten us into war replaced by ones who have at least some shred of decency. What do you want, Henry? What is it that you hope will happen with the US?
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:09 am What an inconsiderate little turd you are. Expect the same 'consideration' in return. Nice way to make everyone's lives as miserable as possible (including your own). Children are normally brought up to consider the feelings of others. If everyone is considerate of one another then society can function reasonably well.
Amen sister. But, sadly, that sort of upbringing doesn’t work for sociopaths.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:47 pm
I recall you saying a while back about the poor needing to contact a church instead of other charities.
No. I did say Associated Catholic Charities is one place, among many, those in need can access. I never said they, or the Church, were the go-to organizations.
If you want to completely extract yourself from guilt for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, then how do you intend to do that and be an American citizen at the same time?
How am I guilty?
Am I right to therefore assume that you don't consider yourself an American citizen?
I'm an American.
Or were you out vigorously protesting those wars which the democracy (or Republic or whatever that we live in) got US citizens involved in?
Did I uselessly march in the streets? No.
I therefore have accountability for what my society does in my name.
I honestly can't see how you are responsible for what sociopaths and amoralists in high places do.
What do you want, Henry? What is it that you hope will happen with the US?
I want to be left alone. Full stop.


Seems appropriate to drop this here...
henry quirk wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 12:23 am Manuel, "Mannie" O'Kelly, Wyoming "Wyoh" Knott, and Professor Bernardo de La Paz conversing...

"Now," I said, after we toasted, "Prof, what you think of pennant race? Got money says Yankees can't do it again?"

"Manuel, what is your political philosophy?"

"With that new boy from Milwaukee I feel like investing."

"Sometimes a man doesn't have it defined but, under Socratic inquiry, knows where he stands and why."

"I'll back 'em against field, three to two."

"What? You young idiot! How much?"

"Three hundred. Hong Kong."

"Done. For example, under what circumstances may the State justly place its welfare above that of a citizen?"

"Mannie," Wyoh asked, "do you have any more foolish money? I think well of the Phillies."

I looked her over. "Just what were you thinking of betting?"

"You go to hell! Rapist."

"Prof, as I see, are no circumstances under which State is justified in placing its welfare ahead of mine."

"Good. We have a starting point."

"Mannie," said Wyoh, "that's a most self-centered evaluation."

"I'm a most self-centered person."

"Oh, nonsense. Who rescued me? Me, a stranger. And didn't try to exploit it. Professor, I was cracking not facking. Mannie was a perfect knight."

"Sans peur et sans reproche. I knew, I've known him for years. Which is not inconsistent with evaluation he expressed."

"Oh, but it is! Not the way things are but under the ideal toward which we aim. Mannie, the 'State' is Luna. Even though not sovereign yet and we hold citizenships elsewhere. But I am part of the Lunar State and so is your family. Would you die for your family?"

"Two questions not related."

"Oh, but they are! That's the point."

"Nyet. I know my family, opted long ago."

"Dear Lady, I must come to Manuel's defense. He has a correct evaluation even though he may not be able to state it. May I ask this? Under what circumstances is it moral for a group to do that which is not moral for a member of that group to do alone?"

"Uh... that's a trick question."

"It is the key question, dear Wyoming. A radical question that strikes to the root of the whole dilemma of government. Anyone who answers honestly and abides by all consequences knows where he stands-- and what he will die for."

Wyoh frowned. "'Not moral for a member of the group--'" she said.

"Professor... what are your political principles?"

"May I first ask yours? If you can state them?"

"Certainly I can! I'm a Fifth Internationalist, most of the Organization is. Oh, we don't rule out anyone going our way; it's a united front. We have Communists and Fourths and Ruddyites and Societians and Single-Taxers and you name it. But I'm no Marxist; we Fifths have a practical program. Private where private belongs, public where it's needed, and an admission that circumstances alter cases. Nothing doctrinaire."

"Capital punishment?"

"For what?"

"Let's say for treason. Against Luna after you've freed Luna."

"Treason how? Unless I knew the circumstances I could not decide."

"Nor could I, dear Wyoming. But I believe in capital punishment under some circumstances... with this difference. I would not ask a court; I would try, condemn, execute sentence myself, and accept full responsibility."

"But--Professor, what are your political beliefs?"

"I'm a rational anarchist."

"I don't know that brand. Anarchist individualist, anarchist Communist, Christian anarchist, philosophical anarchist, syndicalist, libertarian--those I know. But what's this? Randite?"

"I can get along with a Randite. A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as 'state' and 'society' and 'government' have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to shift blame, share blame, distribute blame... as blame, guilt, responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world... aware that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge of self failure."

"Hear, hear!" I said. "'Less than perfect.' What I've been aiming for all my life."

"You've achieved it," said Wyoh. "Professor, your words sound good but there is something slippery about them. Too much power in the hands of individuals--surely you would not want... well, H-missiles for example--to be controlled by one irresponsible person?"

"My point is that one person is responsible. Always. If H-bombs exist--and they do--some man controls them. In tern of morals there is no such thing as 'state.' Just men. Individuals. Each responsible for his own acts."

...

Wyoh plowed doggedly into Prof, certain she had all answers. But Prof was interested in questions rather than answers, which baffled her. Finally she said, "Professor, I can't understand you. I don't insist that you call it 'government'--I just want you to state what rules you think are necessary to insure equal freedom for all."

"Dear lady, I'll happily accept your rules."

"But you don't seem to want any rules!"

"True. But I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

"You would not abide by a law that the majority felt was necessary?"

"Tell me what law, dear lady, and I will tell you whether I will obey it."

"You wiggled out. Every time I state a general principle, you wiggle out."

Prof clasped hands on chest. "Forgive me. Believe me, lovely Wyoming, I am most anxious to please you. You spoke of willingness to unite the front with anyone going your way. Is it enough that I want to see the Authority thrown off Luna and would die to serve that end?"

Wyoh beamed. "It certainly is!" She fisted his ribs--gently--then put arm around him and kissed cheek. "Comrade! Let's get on with it!"

"Cheers!" I said.

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress Robert A. Heinlein
Gary Childress
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:05 pm
I therefore have accountability for what my society does in my name.
I honestly can't see how you are responsible for what sociopaths and amoralists in high places do.
I've worked in my society as I'm sure you have. My wages are taxed. I am taxed. Heck, if I worked for the "defense" industry (which I don't) then I would be pouring all of my energy directly into producing the means of carrying out those invasions.

The taxes I pay are used to support and maintain presidential administrations that have been devoted to invasions of other countries. What should I do, refuse to pay taxes, and get hauled in for "tax evasion"? In my opinion, there should at least be check boxes somewhere at the beginning of the 1040 where we can specifically select what programs we want our taxes to go into or at least say what programs our taxes shouldn't. There's been no such check box yet that I've seen. For all I know I helped pay for a cruise missile that "collaterally" killed a kid in Pakistan.

I can't completely divest myself from the country I work in and live in. I'm a US citizen. I would rather stay a US citizen rather than move to another country to contribute to their economy. But if my country is just going to do evil with my taxes, then I either keep paying for the missiles that "collaterally" kill innocents around the world or I move to another country so that I can preserve my moral integrity. There's a brain drain now in America. Expatriation is a growing thing for many very smart and intelligent people. I choose to work with my own country to make it better. Maybe because I believe in some, most or all of the founding principles, or maybe because I don't speak Spanish or any other language than "American" English. I'm here. I'm not going anywhere if I can help it.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:20 pm
I am taxed.
Do you pay freely, or do you pay becuz you'll be penalized if you don't?
The taxes I pay are used to support and maintain presidential administrations that have been devoted to invasions of other countries.
Do you have any say how your taxes are spent?
But if my country is just going to do evil with my taxes, then I either keep paying for the missiles that "collaterally" kill innocents around the world or I move to another country so that I can preserve my moral integrity.
I honestly don't see how you're responsible for what thieves do with the money they steal from you. Nor do I understand why you feel leavin' America would preserve your integrity.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:33 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:20 pm
I am taxed.
The taxes I pay are used to support and maintain presidential administrations that have been devoted to invasions of other countries.
Do you have any say how your taxes are spent?
But if my country is just going to do evil with my taxes, then I either keep paying for the missiles that "collaterally" kill innocents around the world or I move to another country so that I can preserve my moral integrity.
I honestly don't see how you're responsible for what thieves do with the money they steal from you. Nor do I understand why you feel leavin' America would preserve your integrity.
They are only "thieves" if they take my money to pay for something I don't want them to pay for. I pay taxes because if I evade them I will get penalized. Do I complain about having to pay taxes? No. I pay them because taxes also support many programs that I want to see happen, such as social security to an appropriate extent. I don't want my work to go toward things that will kill someone thousands of miles away from me and I don't want to reduce the Federal government to something that could never support social security, or advanced research that private ventures are unable to do entirely on their own due to economic scale (such as space exploration).
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:47 pm
They are only "thieves" if they take my money to pay for something I don't want them to pay for.
They're thieves becuz they take your money without your permission.
I pay taxes because if I evade them I will get penalized.
Yes. You don't pay freely. You're robbed.
Do I complain about having to pay taxes? No. I pay them because taxes also support many programs that I want to see happen, such as social security to an appropriate extent. I don't want my work to go toward things that will kill someone thousands of miles away from me and I don't want to reduce the Federal government to something that could never support social security, or advanced research that private ventures are unable to do entirely on their own due to economic scale (such as space exploration).
Then you're a hard place.

Me: every penny I can keep out of their hands, I do keep out of their hands.

There's not a single government program that isn't, or can't be, done better by the private sector.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 5:53 pm
Do I complain about having to pay taxes? No. I pay them because taxes also support many programs that I want to see happen, such as social security to an appropriate extent. I don't want my work to go toward things that will kill someone thousands of miles away from me and I don't want to reduce the Federal government to something that could never support social security, or advanced research that private ventures are unable to do entirely on their own due to economic scale (such as space exploration).
Then you're a hard place.

Me: every penny I can keep out of their hands, I do keep out of their hands.

There's not a single government program that isn't, or can't be, done better by the private sector.
And that is happening. Many agencies County, State and Federal farm out their services to private companies. Vocational Rehab services where I live are on majority performed by not-for-profit and non-profit corporations that contract with government. There is no perfect solution in providing for society's basic fundamental needs. Private corporations can sometimes become lucrative opportunities for those interested only in benefitting themselves too. Government agencies OTOH have GS pay scales where it's a little more difficult (at least in theory) for public servants to profit off of their services unfairly (aka getting too much in return for shoddy work). It's not perfect. There is no perfect, except in the ideals which guide us. But those ideals are NOT in the world around us if we don't make them so. They are what we need the world around us to do or be in order to flourish and preserve the very world we need in order to live.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

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Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:03 pmMany agencies County, State and Federal farm out their services to private companies. Vocational Rehab services where I live are on majority performed by not-for-profit and non-profit corporations that contract with government.
Private companies and not-for-profit and non-profit corporations that contract with government become de facto agents or employees of the state, beholden to the state. They are no longer private in any real sense.
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Re: The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 1:07 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 12:39 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 11:29 am

If hiring folks to direct you is what you want, then keep doin' that.
Right, so your 'system' will be every individual (all 300 million of them) will have their own little set of laws that suit their own individual needs, and of course everyone else will stick to everyone else's individual set of laws. You are an imbecile.
He's not an "imbecile". He's saying that 300 million people ought to have the same set of laws concerning a right to "person and property" (or whatever it is that he is advocating). I'm curious if, within his framework, there is a limit to how much "property" a person can own. I believe he states that everyone owns themselves. However, does it prevent some from owning everything or so much that there is less for others who maybe work just as hard if not harder?

@Henry: If one person is very smart or whatever and comes to own all the food and everyone else only owns "themselves" then what can the other people do in exchange for food if they have no other possessions than themselves? Suppose the one who owns all the food decides to exchange food for labor on his new mansion being built. Doesn't that make everyone else his servant? And if they are his servants do they really own "themselves"?
Yes, he is. He's never been able to explain how his 'system' could work. That's because it has no substance and could never work. What the fuck does 'everyone owns themselves' even mean? It's just another stupid yank buzzphrase that means exactly nothing. No substance, like the whole stupid country of imbeciles.
Who's forcing him to hand over his precious money anyway? There's nothing to stop him from living off the grid. Normal people don't want to live such a dangerous, miserable existence. He's welcome to it.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Tue Aug 29, 2023 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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