Philosophy Now Forum

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:22 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:41 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:40 pm
No, you misunderstood. Think of a situation where you want to invest in the market but you don't know whether the price of a share increases or decreases. That is what I mean you don't know what is going to happen. Are you able to decide?

Talk me through it!
Make a choice without thinking about it.

I of course think of choices when I want to make a decision but sometimes thinking does not help to choose.

How do you make that choice?

"What are you talking about?"

Sculptor had said sumthin to you about you being your own first cause.

The phrase 'hoisted by your own bootstraps' is used by philosophers to convey the meaning of the phrase 'ex nihilo', i.e., out of nothing.

Hence, if bahman is his own first cause, he hoisted himself up by his own bootstraps into existence. Meaning, nothing else caused you... nothing else hoisted you up.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:43 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:22 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:41 pm

Talk me through it!
Make a choice without thinking about it.

I of course think of choices when I want to make a decision but sometimes thinking does not help to choose.

How do you make that choice?

I just pick up one option and disregard thinking.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:10 pm "What are you talking about?"

Sculptor had said sumthin to you about you being your own first cause.

The phrase 'hoisted by your own bootstraps' is used by philosophers to convey the meaning of the phrase 'ex nihilo', i.e., out of nothing.

Hence, if bahman is his own first cause, he hoisted himself up by his own bootstraps into existence. Meaning, nothing else caused you... nothing else hoisted you up.

What you said applies to my mind which is free. My mind is uncaused cause. That is rooted in free will.

bahman,

"Sorry, I should have said: It is not a free choice if it is biased by the smell of bacon."

Ok.

But I dont get it, when is free choice then?

Stick with the example of the left or right in the road.

When I dont have thoughts, and so I dont have thoughts like "I think is better to go to the left because the sun will be behind me and I will see better", then, I still have sensations, emotions, like hungry or fear.

But you say that is not a free choice if it is biased by hungry and i guess neither if it is biased by fear.


Tell me all that happens in the moment you choose FREE to go to the right instead of go to the left.

¿There are thoughts? ¿There are sensations, emotions?

Thank you!!

CHNOPS wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:24 pm bahman,

"Sorry, I should have said: It is not a free choice if it is biased by the smell of bacon."

Ok.

But I dont get it, when is free choice then?

When you are not biased by left or right.

CHNOPS wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:24 pm Stick with the example of the left or right in the road.

When I dont have thoughts, and so I dont have thoughts like "I think is better to go to the left because the sun will be behind me and I will see better", then, I still have sensations, emotions, like hungry or fear.

But you say that is not a free choice if it is biased by hungry and i guess neither if it is biased by fear.


Tell me all that happens in the moment you choose FREE to go to the right instead of go to the left.

¿There are thoughts? ¿There are sensations, emotions?

Thank you!!

Your aim is to reach your destination so sensations and emotions do not matter. Thoughts also cannot help you since if they could you would choose a proper road. Yet you are able to choose.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:40 pm

Age wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:36 am

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:47 pm
We have been through this before. Are you able to do anything when you have no idea what is going to happen to you?

YES i am ABLE to do SOME things when i have NO idea what is going to happen to me.

For example, i am able to go to the shops, when I have NO idea what is going to happen to me. BUT, absolutely NONE of this backs up and supports YOUR CLAIM that 'we' are able to choose between options without absolutely ANY bias AT ALL.

No, you misunderstood.

"NO, you MISUNDERSTOOD", IS NOT any form of argument. It is just A CLAIM, which, until you PROVE IT, it is just based on your OWN INTERPRETATION.

Now, you asked me, "Are you able to do anything when you have no idea what is going to happen to you?"

I SAID, 'YES', and then provide an ACTUAL EXAMPLE, of which you could NOT REFUTE.

SO, what this ALL MEANS is that I am ABLE to do things, when I have no idea what is going to happen to me. Therefore, I have NOT misunderstood one singular, solitary thing here. Is this UNDERSTOOD, by 'you', "bahman"?

SEE, what is becoming CRYSTAL CLEAR "bahman" is that it IS 'you' who is MISUNDERSTANDING here, and ONCE AGAIN, I will add.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:40 pm Think of a situation where you want to invest in the market but you don't know whether the price of a share increases or decreases.

Do you mean WILL increase or decrease? BECAUSE share prices are CONTINUALLY increasing OR decreasing.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:40 pm That is what I mean you don't know what is going to happen.

OF COURSE NO ONE KNOWS, FOR SURE, what is going to happen, with the price of shares.

OBVIOUSLY, IF ANY one KNEW, for sure, then they would KNOW, FOR SURE, where to put ALL of their money.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:40 pm Are you able to decide?

YES, OF COURSE I AM ABLE TO 'decide'. As I just SHOW and PROVED BEFORE, with the ACTUAL EXAMPLE I PROVIDED. WHICH, by the way, providing example/s is some thing that we are WAITING for you TO DO.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:22 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:43 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:22 pm
I of course think of choices when I want to make a decision but sometimes thinking does not help to choose.

How do you make that choice?

I just pick up one option and disregard thinking.

Just because you pick one option over another and you are NOT AWARE of the reason WHY, this does NOT mean that it was a 'free choice', from your ABSURDLY STUPID reasoning that 'free will' means making a choice, UNBIASEDLY.

Absolutely EVERY choice you make is BIASED on SOME thing.

You are just NOT YET FULLY AWARE of WHY you CHOSE what you HAVE.

In fact you are SO UNAWARE of what HAPPENS within that head there, you are completely and utterly INCAPABLE of INFORMING us of ANY time you have CHOSEN some thing, which was NOT biased in ANY way, shape, NOR form.

You come here, continually, CLAIMING this phenomena happens YET you are not even ABLE to provide just ONE example of when you have EVER done this.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:24 pm

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:10 pm "What are you talking about?"

Sculptor had said sumthin to you about you being your own first cause.

The phrase 'hoisted by your own bootstraps' is used by philosophers to convey the meaning of the phrase 'ex nihilo', i.e., out of nothing.

Hence, if bahman is his own first cause, he hoisted himself up by his own bootstraps into existence. Meaning, nothing else caused you... nothing else hoisted you up.

What you said applies to my mind which is free. My mind is uncaused cause. That is rooted in free will.

The word 'my' implies OWNERSHIP. So, who and/or what is the OWNER of 'my mind'?

Work that out and you, hopefully, WILL SEE and UNDERSTAND just how ABSURD and STUPID some of YOUR CLAIMS here Truly ARE.

"What you said applies to my mind which is free. My mind is uncaused cause. That is rooted in free will."

That's between you and your therapist and really none of my business.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:22 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:43 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:22 pm
I of course think of choices when I want to make a decision but sometimes thinking does not help to choose.

How do you make that choice?

I just pick up one option and disregard thinking.

How?

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:40 pm "What you said applies to my mind which is free. My mind is uncaused cause. That is rooted in free will."

That's between you and your therapist and really none of my business.

LOL!!! BEAUTIFUL!!

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:39 am

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:40 pm "What you said applies to my mind which is free. My mind is uncaused cause. That is rooted in free will."

That's between you and your therapist and really none of my business.

LOL!!! BEAUTIFUL!!

YES, SOME people REALLY DID SEE ATTEMPTS AT RIDICULING, HUMILIATING, and of AD HOMINEN ATTACKS of "others" and 'their character' REALLY BEAUTIFUL, BACK in the days when this WAS being written. And, this WAS IN a philosophy forum. So, one could VERY WELL IMAGINE what the REST of 'the society' WAS like, BACK THEN.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:00 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:40 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:34 pm
By free I mean that your decision is not biased by options. Think of a situation in which you are on a road that takes you to a destination. Suddenly the road forks and you don't know which road to take. You cannot be biased with one of the roads yet you are free to choose one. Think of a situation where you want to invest in the market but you don't know whether the price for a share increases or decreases. Your options are whether to invest in the market or not. Can't you decide in such a situation? The number of cases where we don't know what to do yet we do something is very vast in our lives.

But Bahman, that's not freedom of choice, that's random choice. We do random choosing when we gamble .

A decision is either biased or not. In the first case, it is determined and in the second case, it is free. You don't have any other option. Free will looks random from the third person's perspective but it is not random from the first person's perspective since there is the element of wanting.

"The element of wanting" is determined by your biological needs and what you have learned to believe you are entitled to. By honest introspection you can adopt a third person, unbiased, point of view.

Obviously you have learned mainstream morality, therefore you believe you are entitled to glorify goodness, truth, and beauty. It 's even possible that the urge to glorify certain abstract qualities is a biological urge.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:24 am

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:00 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:40 pm

But Bahman, that's not freedom of choice, that's random choice. We do random choosing when we gamble .

A decision is either biased or not. In the first case, it is determined and in the second case, it is free. You don't have any other option. Free will looks random from the third person's perspective but it is not random from the first person's perspective since there is the element of wanting.

"The element of wanting" is determined by your biological needs

HOW was the WANT of a 'red ferrari', for example, determined by SOME so-called 'biological need'?

And,

WHAT 'biological need' could, supposedly, create or cause the WANT of a 'red ferrari', for example?

Or, what possible 'biological need' could possibly drive a person to DESIRE or WANT to travel around the world to watch a coffin drive by, which may well contain NO human body AT ALL, or not, within it?

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:24 am and what you have learned to believe you are entitled to.

Are there REALLY some adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, who Truly BELIEVE that they are ACTUALLY 'entitled' to some 'things'?

If yes, then WHO are those human beings?

And,

What, EXACTLY, do they ACTUALLY BELIEVE that they are 'entitled' to?

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:24 am By honest introspection you can adopt a third person, unbiased, point of view.

Obviously you have learned mainstream morality, therefore you believe you are entitled to glorify goodness, truth, and beauty. [/quote]

Learning some 'thing' NEVER means one HAS TO BELIEVE ANY 'thing'.

For example, you might have LEARNED that God created the Universe, or 'mainstream morality', (WHATEVER that IS, EXACTLY), but there is NO reason to then just start BELIEVING some 'thing' as ABSURD AS; 'you' are 'entitled' to GLORIFY 'goodness', 'truth', NOR 'beauty', (WHATEVER those 'things' ACTUALLY ARE, EXACTLY).

Oh, and by the way, IF one had ALREADY LEARNED, properly AND correctly, what 'goodness' IS, EXACTLY, what 'Truth' and 'truth' IS, EXACTLY, and what 'beauty' IS, EXACTLY, then they would be CLOSER to GLORIFYING only those 'things', which DESERVE being GLORIFIED.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:24 am It 's even possible that the urge to glorify certain abstract qualities is a biological urge.

HOW and WHY would this even be a POSSIBILITY?

WHEN 'you', ALSO, have the ANSWER to this question, then 'you' KNOW 'you' will, ALSO, be MUCH CLOSER to thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.