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Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:05 pm
by Terrapin Station
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:58 pm
..lol - wot time? That is precisely my point. EG TIME EMIT (reversed) until a photon emits from an electron - at that level - is there TIME?
So, since time is identical to motion or change, there is only time when and insofar as there is motion or change, including motion or change relative to other existents.
Re Zeno's paradox, that's about the abstraction as seeing time as a potentially infinite (or rather infinitesimal) series of points, which isn't what it's really like.
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:08 pm
by attofishpi
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:05 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:58 pm
..lol - wot time? That is precisely my point. EG TIME EMIT (reversed) until a photon emits from an electron - at that level - is there TIME?
So, since time is identical to motion or change, there is only time when and insofar as there is motion or change, including motion or change relative to other existents.
Re Zeno's paradox, that's about the abstraction as seeing time as a potentially infinite (or rather infinitesimal) series of points, which isn't what it's really like.
Yes, time only exists - because there is at least 1 event, and there is a contradiction of mathematics and reality - that mathematics can deal with infinity whereas reality doesn't - not as far as I am concerned.
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:10 pm
by psycho
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:27 pm
psycho wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:08 pm
Your position is that we are warned of the "now" according to our ability to distinguish the granularity of reality?
??? Um, what?
How does it relate to the fact that changes cannot occur "now"?
LOL--that is no "fact." That's just the point.
You can see that I still don't understand you!
Maybe it would help if we share the meaning of some concepts.
How do you define "present"?
What is "conscience"?
What is "change"?
What is time"?
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:13 pm
by psycho
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:21 am
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:27 pm
psycho wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:08 pm
Your position is that we are warned of the "now" according to our ability to distinguish the granularity of reality?
??? Um, what?
How does it relate to the fact that changes cannot occur "now"?
LOL--that is no "fact." That's just the point.
..i think the point TS might be making (and bahman) is that NOW is a moment in time - in a true moment in time, there is NO event.
Not an electron emitting a photon - etc..(TIME - EMIT) and since our consciousness (anatomic brain) relies upon the matter, and events occurring - ergo -NOTHING can happen at NOW - it is BINARY. Either there is an event or there is not an event. - TIME.
Do you suppose that "time" is something that affects the elements of reality?
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:29 pm
by Terrapin Station
psycho wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:10 pm
How do you define . . .
Time: changes and/or motions
Change or motion: any variation or difference in properties or relations, but not spatial variations or differences (that is, not a difference where A is like F in location x, but like G in location y); rather it's variations or differences where such and such was the case, but such and such is no longer the case, now this and such is the case. In other words, we're talking about properties or relations that obtained but that no longer obtain, different properties or relations obtain instead.
The present--same as "now": the changes (and/or states, assuming there could be anything static) occurring from the perspective of some reference frame, rather than those that occurred from the the perspective of that reference frame, as well as those that will occur from the perspective of that reference frame. One such reference frame is our conscious awareness.
"Conscience" (I'm assuming you rather meant consciousness)? Mental awareness.
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:50 pm
by Impenitent
change cannot happen at now... unless you are riding a roller coaster...
-Imp
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:01 pm
by psycho
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:29 pm
psycho wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:10 pm
How do you define . . .
Time: changes and/or motions
Change or motion: any variation or difference in properties or relations, but not spatial variations or differences (that is, not a difference where A is like F in location x, but like G in location y); rather it's variations or differences where such and such was the case, but such and such is no longer the case, now this and such is the case. In other words, we're talking about properties or relations that obtained but that no longer obtain, different properties or relations obtain instead.
The present--same as "now": the changes (and/or states, assuming there could be anything static) occurring from the perspective of some reference frame, rather than those that occurred from the the perspective of that reference frame, as well as those that will occur from the perspective of that reference frame. One such reference frame is our conscious awareness.
"Conscience" (I'm assuming you rather meant consciousness)? Mental awareness.
I do not distinguish what is, for you, the difference between Time, Change and Movement. Are they the same in your opinion?
Regarding the "present", you say what it is the change from a certain perspective?
For example, a change would be the rusting of a coin. Before it was not rusty and now it is rusty? That the same coin falls to the ground, would it be a change?
In that scenario (that of the coin), which cases would count as present? How is the perspective that makes the present dependent on it applied here?
Yep. My English is awful! Sorry!
A synonym does not define.
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:20 am
by attofishpi
psycho wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:13 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:21 am
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:27 pm
??? Um, what?
LOL--that is no "fact." That's just the point.
..i think the point TS might be making (and bahman) is that NOW is a moment in time - in a true moment in time, there is NO event.
Not an electron emitting a photon - etc..(TIME - EMIT) and since our consciousness (anatomic brain) relies upon the matter, and events occurring - ergo -NOTHING can happen at NOW - it is BINARY. Either there is an event or there is not an event. - TIME.
Do you suppose that "time" is something that affects the elements of reality?
..at the binary scale where events that pertain to the makeup of our reality are 'permitted' to occur, WELL of course.
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:53 pm
by Terrapin Station
psycho wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:01 pm
I do not distinguish what is, for you, the difference between Time, Change and Movement. Are they the same in your opinion?
They're the same aside from the fact that motion is a subset of change. (All motion is change, not all change is motion.)
Regarding the "present", you say what it is the change from a certain perspective?
For example, a change would be the rusting of a coin. Before it was not rusty and now it is rusty? That the same coin falls to the ground, would it be a change?
In that scenario (that of the coin), which cases would count as present?
Of course falling to the ground is a change. Re the present, again, it depends on the reference frame.
A synonym does not define.
All definitions are synonymous with what they're defining. If they're not, then the definition is either adding something that shouldn't be in the definition or missing something that should be in the definition.
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:43 pm
by psycho
attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:20 am
psycho wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:13 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:21 am
..i think the point TS might be making (and bahman) is that NOW is a moment in time - in a true moment in time, there is NO event.
Not an electron emitting a photon - etc..(TIME - EMIT) and since our consciousness (anatomic brain) relies upon the matter, and events occurring - ergo -NOTHING can happen at NOW - it is BINARY. Either there is an event or there is not an event. - TIME.
Do you suppose that "time" is something that affects the elements of reality?
..at the binary scale where events that pertain to the makeup of our reality are 'permitted' to occur, WELL of course.
Through what mechanism are elements of reality affected by time?
What action do you attribute to time and what effect do you imagine that it produces on objects?
Would you have an example?
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:54 pm
by psycho
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:53 pm
psycho wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:01 pm
I do not distinguish what is, for you, the difference between Time, Change and Movement. Are they the same in your opinion?
They're the same aside from the fact that motion is a subset of change. (All motion is change, not all change is motion.)
Regarding the "present", you say what it is the change from a certain perspective?
For example, a change would be the rusting of a coin. Before it was not rusty and now it is rusty? That the same coin falls to the ground, would it be a change?
In that scenario (that of the coin), which cases would count as present?
Of course falling to the ground is a change. Re the present, again, it depends on the reference frame.
A synonym does not define.
All definitions are synonymous with what they're defining. If they're not, then the definition is either adding something that shouldn't be in the definition or missing something that should be in the definition.
In other words, when there is no change, there is no time. Does the rate of change imply an increase in the rate at which time passes?
Then Consciousness is Mental awareness and in turn Mental awareness is consciousness? Those are circular definitions and of course cannot be considered valid.
You don't have a definition of "present" either?
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:20 am
by Terrapin Station
psycho wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:54 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:53 pm
psycho wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:01 pm
I do not distinguish what is, for you, the difference between Time, Change and Movement. Are they the same in your opinion?
They're the same aside from the fact that motion is a subset of change. (All motion is change, not all change is motion.)
Regarding the "present", you say what it is the change from a certain perspective?
For example, a change would be the rusting of a coin. Before it was not rusty and now it is rusty? That the same coin falls to the ground, would it be a change?
In that scenario (that of the coin), which cases would count as present?
Of course falling to the ground is a change. Re the present, again, it depends on the reference frame.
A synonym does not define.
All definitions are synonymous with what they're defining. If they're not, then the definition is either adding something that shouldn't be in the definition or missing something that should be in the definition.
In other words, when there is no change, there is no time. Does the rate of change imply an increase in the rate at which time passes?
Then Consciousness is Mental awareness and in turn Mental awareness is consciousness? Those are circular definitions and of course cannot be considered valid.
You don't have a definition of "present" either?
First, I pointed this out above: all definitions are synonymous (and wind up being circular). If it's not synonymous, it can't be a definition. It might be an example or something, but it wouldn't be a definition.
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:14 am
by attofishpi
psycho wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:43 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:20 am
psycho wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:13 pm
Do you suppose that "time" is something that affects the elements of reality?
..at the binary scale where events that pertain to the makeup of our reality are 'permitted' to occur, WELL of course.
Through what mechanism are elements of reality affected by time?
U R not under_standing me.
At the binary scale, the mechanism that are the elements of reality are not 'affected' by time - they are permitted to BE a mechanism of an element of reality. (which man eventually measures as "TIME")
psycho wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:43 pmWhat action do you attribute to time and what effect do you imagine that it produces on objects?
Would you have an example?
Sure, I still wear an old fashioned watch - on my left hand. (in fact I wear it because it is cool as fuck - an ex found it in the early 90s)
So.
When I look at the hair growing on my right wrist. (an example)
- that there, have I answered your quest_ion?
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:15 am
by Skepdick
psycho wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:54 pm
In other words, when there is no change, there is no time.
The conception of time you are using depends on the scale of your reference frame.
At quantum scale time is deemed to be universal.
At universe scale time is deemed to be relative.
At quantum scale it is
entirely possible to arrest change/motion.
That obviously doesn't imply that time stops, but that's because change/motion has only stopped for the system under observation, not for the observer.
It is precisely the observer who is observing that there is "no change" (over time).
Ultimately, though, the measurement problem is a problem of scale. The system under observation is at quantum scale, but the observer is a classical system. There is parallax in the reference frame, and as every physicist is aware - no physics theory is
scale invariant.
So which theory should you use to interpret the results? Flip a coin and philosophise away.
Re: Change cannot happen at now
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:48 am
by attofishpi
___________psycho________
(the level I am talking about is lower than the above..)