Philosophy Now Forum

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:55 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:53 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:42 am

So are you saying that it isn't a tragedy that the elderly and people with compromised immune systems are suffering right now?

It's a tragedy for them. Do you grieve every time an elderly person you don't know dies of flu? Because there are thousands who do, every year.

Do you grieve for every person killed by American bombs even though you don't know them? I assume you do. I'd rather see people happy and living than dead or choking on their own blood.

Wars overwhelmingly kill the young and vital. They cause untold misery and destructon on a massive scale. And what happens when the wet markets start up again (which they will) and this will have all been for nothing? All you care about is your parents. Well keep them locked up then. Why lock up everyone?? If they don't die of this then they will die of something else soon enough. My mother could die of a cold or a puff of wind. I'm not concerned about her at all. I'm concerned for my children and the world they are going to inherit.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:00 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:55 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:53 am

It's a tragedy for them. Do you grieve every time an elderly person you don't know dies of flu? Because there are thousands who do, every year.

Do you grieve for every person killed by American bombs even though you don't know them? I assume you do. I'd rather see people happy and living than dead or choking on their own blood.

Wars overwhelmingly kill the young and vital. They call untold misery and destructon on a massive scale. And what happens when the wet markets start up again (which they will) and this will have all been for nothing? All you care about is your parents. Well keep them locked up then. Whey lock up everyone??

So only the young and "vital" count? Old people and weak people don't?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:01 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:00 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:55 am

Do you grieve for every person killed by American bombs even though you don't know them? I assume you do. I'd rather see people happy and living than dead or choking on their own blood.

Wars overwhelmingly kill the young and vital. They call untold misery and destructon on a massive scale. And what happens when the wet markets start up again (which they will) and this will have all been for nothing? All you care about is your parents. Well keep them locked up then. Whey lock up everyone??

So only the young and "vital" count? Old people and weak people don't?

You're an idiot.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:52 am I am more than simply my choices. Presumably I could have chosen something different and would still be "me".

So you don't think a universe in which you had free will would be better than one where you didn't?

Is it related to human dignity? Slaves sure think it is.

Slavery is evil. You're the one who wants the option open for people to become enslaved, not me.

Now, now, Gary...play nice. I'm being nice to you.

You know that's not true. I'm just pointing out that the ability to exercise one's free will is highly prized, and is at the root of human dignity. I'm sure you agree.

And as for morality, free will is its sine qua non. "Ought implies can." If you can't choose, then you can't be morally accountable, or a moral agent.

True, no one would go to hell. Would you prefer some people to burn in hell?

My preference isn't at issue, but I'd prefer people to choose better than that, as a matter of fact. However, many people don't think any paradise of any description involves the reduction of its occupants to will-deprived automatons.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:03 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:01 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:00 am

Wars overwhelmingly kill the young and vital. They call untold misery and destructon on a massive scale. And what happens when the wet markets start up again (which they will) and this will have all been for nothing? All you care about is your parents. Well keep them locked up then. Whey lock up everyone??

So only the young and "vital" count? Old people and weak people don't?

You're an idiot.

Whatever.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:04 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:52 am I am more than simply my choices. Presumably I could have chosen something different and would still be "me".

So you don't think a universe in which you had free will would be better than one where you didn't?

Is it related to human dignity? Slaves sure think it is.

Slavery is evil. You're the one who wants the option open for people to become enslaved, not me.

Now, now, Gary...play nice. I'm being nice to you.

You know that's not true. I'm just pointing out that the ability to exercise one's free will is highly prized, and is at the root of human dignity. I'm sure you agree.

And as for morality, free will is its sine qua non. "Ought implies can." If you can't choose, then you can't be morally accountable, or a moral agent.

True, no one would go to hell. Would you prefer some people to burn in hell?

My preference isn't at issue, but I'd prefer people to choose better than that, as a matter of fact. However, many people don't think any paradise of any description involves the reduction of its occupants to will-deprived automatons.

You don't understand. And you'll never understand. You'll worship this God of yours until you're blue in the face choking on your own blood. Then you'll say, "Thank you, may I please have another". I'm not going to kiss the ass of a being that creates so much misery and horror in the world.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:36 pm

Averroes wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:18 pm So for those here who are not arrogant and who fears the warning of the Creator, the Almighty; I humbly suggest to you to repent to Him...

It is actually arrogance and NOT humility that leads you to suggest that you know an ultimate god that others do not.

Thank you for your input sister Lacewing!

Recognizing that God, the Almighty is the Absolute Sovereign is common sense and not arrogance. We already had a very interesting and civilized conversation on that subject about two years ago sister Lacewing. It was on the thread Buddhism: "Enlightenment" through Sexual Orgies! Please, you can review that conversation of ours as from this post: viewtopic.php?p=376417&sid=23b089c152f5 ... c2#p376417

Lacewing wrote:Who are you to tell other people to REPENT according to some idea you hold?

This is a very pertinent question sister Lacewing, thank you for asking that.

Who am I? I am a son of Prophet Adam (peace be upon him), and in common parlance, I am a human being. As a human being, I have been given certain rights by the Lord, the Creator of all things. Among these rights that I have been given is the right to believe in the Creator. Allah, the Almighty sets down this right to believe in Him in the Holy Quran thus:

• And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place. [Quran, interpretation of meaning, 18:29]

And this right has been taken up by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in the freedom of conscience and expression in articles 18 and 19 respectively.

Don’t you agree with articles 18 and 19 of the UDHR?

______________________________________________

So, I again humbly suggest to all who are reading this and who are not arrogant, to repent sincerely to God, the Almighty and then plead with Him with uttermost humility for Him to remove this calamity that has befallen on us due to our own wrongdoing.

So, please forum members do not be selfish and arrogant to that degree. This calamity can go away soon, if our Creator wills, but we have to do our part. Our destiny are intertwined, we are dependent on each other for our well-being here. Recall that if our mothers had killed us in her womb or mistreated us while she was carrying us, we would not be here conversing with each other. Our mothers endured many difficulties bearing us and she took care of us, and now we have the collective opportunity of being grateful to our parents and our elders by seeking the forgiveness of Allah, the Almighty sincerely and asking Him to remove this calamity from us. Allah, the Almighty says in the Holy Quran:

• And We have enjoined upon man [care] for his parents. His mother carried him, [increasing her] in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning is in two years. Be grateful to Me and to your parents; to Me is the [final] destination. [Quran, interpretation of meaning 31:14]

There is a story about Prophet Moses(pbuh) and the Children of Israel which exemplifies how our destinies are interrelated. Translated into English, the story goes somewhat like this:

It is narrated that Prophet Moses(pbuh) once stood up to lead the prayer with the Children of Israel (i.e. the Jews). It was a prayer asking Allah, the Almighty for rain so that Allah sends down upon them water from the skies after the land had become sterile. They prayed , and when they finished the prayer, the rain didn’t fall down.
So, Prophet Moses(pbuh) said to Allah, the Almighty: “O Lord, we have prayed and You did not send down the water.”
Allah, the Almighty told him: “O Moses, there is among you a disobedient servant.”
So Prophet Moses (pbuh) said to the Children of Israel : “O Children of Israel, whoever from among you is disobedient to Allah must leave!”
But nobody left. And Prophet Moses (pbuh) prayed for a second time, then the rain fell down!
So Prophet Moses (pbuh) again addressed Allah, the All-Knowing: “O Lord, we have prayed and the sinner did not leave, and the rain fell down, so what is that?”
Allah, the Most Merciful said : “O Moses, the sinner has repented between him and I, and I have accepted his repentance.”
But Prophet Moses(pbuh) did not stand still, and he said : “ O Lord, I want to know who was the person who sinned and then repented.”
Allah, the Most Merciful said : “O Moses, I had covered his sins during his disobedience, so how could I expose his faults after he has turned in repentance to Me?”


Our Creator, the Almighty is the Most Merciful. There is another conversation that is narrated between Allah, the All-Knowing and Prophet Moses(pbuh) which is enlightening, and it goes somewhat like this into English:

It is narrated that Prophet Moses(pbuh) said to his Lord : “O my Lord, You have created Adam with your power, and You breathed into him of Your Spirit, and You made the Angels prostrate for him, and You entered him in Paradise, and You accepted his repentance. How could he thank You in return for all of these favors?”
So Allah, the Almighty told him : “O Moses, it was sufficient from Adam that he said ‘Praise be to Allah, Lord of all the worlds.’”



This is a great opportunity our Creator, the Almighty is giving us. People are dying in every corner of the world with this disease; but Allah, the Most Merciful has up till now preserved us and is still giving us the opportunity to turn to Him in repentance and to be grateful to Him for all the favors He has bestowed upon us. I humbly advise you forum members to not let this opportunity go to waste.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:14 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:10 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:09 am I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.

Most of the suffering caused in the world we bring upon ourselves. There are exceedingly few episodes in history of what we call evil that we are not responsible for. Why always bring god into the picture when catastrophes happen? We're the fuckers who keep fucking up...perhaps to the point where there's hardly anymore damage to be done. God remains blameless existing or non-existing. God remains non-interventionist, it's primary protocol being as you sow so shall you reap. What could be more just or fair accounting for virtually every instance of good and evil whose sole source is the human psyche. Whether atheist or not, it always seemed extremely wimpy to blame some god for our own self-imposed suffering...most often as consequence of having made others suffer, human or animal. There's always a price to be paid in which even the innocent are not exempt.

First responders and medical personnel are now getting it from their patients and passing it on to their families. I doubt that's an example of "reaping what they sow."

As mentioned even the innocent are not exempt. WE are the ones who created the virus regardless of where it originated and most of the others which preceded. In the collective we reap what we sow, innocent or not! It's only the wimps who keep complaining to god as if IT had any part in it.

Walker wrote: I think for the benefit of yourself and the world you should be more concerned with your own confusion instead of inspecting elevators without a license.

It's a mystery how your brain went from my statement to asking how an atheist could blame God, but I'm not surprised.

Because blame-logic requires someone to blame, and because no God means no theists, this leaves either atheists or no one to blame.

If you say God is a delusion to be blamed, then you are saying that delusion causes suffering and then you're veering back into rationality, but if you should feel the need to be honest that track must also include your own delusional comprehension of God.

My apologies Walker as I certainly got the wrong end of the stick there. I could blame your tendency for over turgid prose but suspect 'God' gave me a brain fart or I just had a senior moment.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:09 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:05 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:09 am After reading about some of the horror stories going on in New York and other places in the world from COVID-19 right now--people drowning in their own blood-filled lungs, medical personnel getting sick while trying to help others--it really makes me wonder what kind of "god" presides over such horror? Is there really a God at all? And if there were, would it not be a God of evil? I was once an atheist because I thought the world was too messed up to be run by a God. Later I was willing to switch to agnosticism because I thought maybe the world is not such an evil place after all. But now I see so much suffering and horror that It really makes me want to go back to being an atheist or else it makes me think God must be evil. I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.

What is God?
If he is the creator then he created the virus.
If he is omniscient then he knows all the effects and suffering the virus causes.
If he is omnipotent then he has the power to stop the virus and the suffering.
What else is God?

If he were a human being, I'd say he was also pathological with a severe mood disorder.

At least schizophrenic

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:01 am
So only the young and "vital" count? Old people and weak people don't?

Do cows count?

Remember the foot & mouth disease back in the day...did those cows count, or was it just easier to pile them all up onto a big burning "pyre" ?

Do you think yourself more important than a cow?

Do you know what the actual real truth is...your life is of no more significance than that of a mosquito.

And that is why you suffer and believe in demons.

How about we just pile all the infected humans up on a "pyre" and watch all of them burn.
Wouldn't that solve the problem of Covid-19?

.

.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:39 am I'm not going to kiss the ass of a being that creates so much misery and horror in the world.

You remind me of a quotation from C.S. Lewis here, Gary. Reflecting, in his autobiography, on his years as an angry Atheist, he wrote:

“I was at this time living, like so many Atheists or Antitheists, in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with Him for creating a world.”

That is, indeed, a "whirl of contradictions." If there's no God, how can you be angry at him for creating the world you insist He did not create? How can you be mad at a God you insist does not exist for not being good? Why are you angry, when you insist nobody is there to have been responsible for the virus, or other bad things? Where is your rage directed? And if God doesn't exist, how can you vent or express that anger by believing He doesn't exist, since there's no God there to be offended by that? Or how will you provoke this "non-existent" God in whom you don't believe, if you work hard at making defiant claims in the hope of disillusioning others, complaining that this non-God has "created misery"? Will this cause Him to hear, and feel the rebuke?

At whom are you angry?

As you must realize, your complaint only has some traction if we hold it possible that God DOES exist. Then, perhaps, some of what you feel and say might be warranted. Otherwise, is it not mere irrational raging? For who hears your objection, and where can you place any blame?

You say God didn't create this world. And then you say he "created so much misery and horror in it." How can both be true?

But in point of fact, I think your complaint is reasonable, and it deserves some kind of reasoned response. I can think that. But how can you?

Arising_uk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:24 am My apologies Walker as I certainly got the wrong end of the stick there. I could blame your tendency for over turgid prose but suspect 'God' gave me a brain fart or I just had a senior moment.

Turgid?

Tell that to a brainwashed teen superhero and you'll hear, "How dare you!"

Although the transmission originates from a teen at heart the years belie the illusion, and so you're likely to hear a less incriminating response than from one so full, more of a leisurely stroll on this side of a language wallow. The worth is more the journey than the bottom line.

Averroes wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:34 am Thank you for your input sister Lacewing!

Hi Averroes. The only thing in your response that rings true to me is the phrase "sister Lacewing". That is true. The rest is something you have chosen to believe, and part of your belief is that it applies to me. For me, it does not. So I guess there's nothing more for us to talk about, as you will continually superimpose your belief over everything that involves me. You will quote books and prophets as if any of it would have any interest to me. I don't think you would like for me to do something similar to you (continually superimposing a belief onto you that you do not believe, and telling you that you should repent because of it)... such is a certain kind of madness... but I guess you cannot help yourself from subjecting me and others to it. I wish you peace.

Immanuel Can to Gary wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:56 pm That is, indeed, a "whirl of contradictions." If there's no God, how can you be angry at him for creating the world you insist He did not create? How can you be mad at a God you insist does not exist for not being good? Why are you angry, when you insist nobody is there...

Why has anyone who ever believed in God at some point been angry and questioned whether or not that god exists? Gary is not the first. It has been going on since ideas of God originated.

Your argument, as usual, twists and frames things as needed to meet your end: to validate your own beliefs. You are not really open to anything else, and this is why you cannot and won't answer questions that actually challenge your own claims/statements. Your ego keeps the façade you use in tact at all costs, even when it's clearly seen as a facade. The strength/necessity of pretense required for religion... fascinating!