Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:23 pm**

seeds wrote: Is this so-called “same singular consciousness” actually conscious of itself (as in self-aware)?

roydop wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 am Humans have the capability to be absolutely self aware, which means we know we exist in and of ourselves, but we still have our awareness "outward" on thoughts and sensations. Absolutely self-aware humans have been called "Enlightened."

I think we might be having a problem with semantics here, for I have seen your arguments on how the “I” and the “you” are simply our ego and not our real self. However, to me, the “I”...

(as in the eye of the mind, the throne of our consciousness, the seat of our soul, the locus of our subjectively-based five senses, the focal point of our self-awareness and personal identity, etc., etc.)

...is, in fact, just another word for the “self” to which you have been alluding.

Granted, it is momentarily under the influence of an accumulated aggregation of illusory nonsense that forms the basis (and problems) of our temporary earthly egos, but nevertheless, to me, the “I” and the “you” and the “self” are synonymous.

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Posted: **Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:25 pm**

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seeds wrote: Furthermore, would this “same singular consciousness” still exist if the physical phenomena of the universe did not exist?

roydop wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 am Yes. The world disappears during dreamless sleep but you still exist. The death state is simply a larger cycle of the same state.

No, roydop, the world does not disappear during dreamless sleep; just your own personal awareness of the world disappears.

Also, it’s not that I doubt that we are all cut from the same cloth of a mutually shared source of life and consciousness; it’s just that I’m still not certain of your particular take on this “same singular consciousness” issue.

So to help clarify that for me, if every human on earth were to die in the next five minutes, do you think that our individual “selves”/“I’s” (as described in the prior post) would continue to exist in such a way that we would still be able to recognize and experience each other’s presence?...

...Or...

...Are you suggesting that our life essence and unique personal identities will be absorbed into some sort of homogenous amalgam where our selfness (our “I Am-ness”) is no longer discernible?

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Posted: **Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:26 pm**

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(Continued from prior post)

roydop wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:49 pm Ultimately, we have to give up our life at death...

seeds wrote: Is that what you would say to comfort a child with a terminal illness who asks you “what’s going to happen to me when I die”?

I bring that up quite often because the promoters of nihilistic philosophies such as the one you are pushing...

(i.e., philosophies that insist that the human self/soul is destined for eternal oblivion at the moment of physical death)

...never seem to realize or consider how utterly useless their theories are to humans in the darkest and most frightening moments of their existence.

roydop wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 am I would tell that child that nothing will happen to them when the body dies because they are not the body.

Obviously, anyone with the slightest modicum of insight understands that the body is not the real self.

However, you clearly stated the following:

roydop wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:49 pm Ultimately, we have to give up our life at death...

If you meant that we have to give up this particular stage of our life, but will continue on in a higher context of reality with our personal selves still intact in a state of...

roydop wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 am “...perfect contentment, timelessness, absolute happiness.”

...then you need to be more careful in how you word things.

roydop wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 am The world arises and passes within you, not the other way around. You see, all of humanity has an inverted view of reality. THIS realm is what is empty. Isn't that becoming increasingly obvious?

Yes, and it became obvious to me approximately 50 years ago, how about you?

On the other hand, it is not empty in the way you are contemptuously portraying it to be, for it (the universe) represents the means through-which our eventually to be revealed “true self” was awakened into existence.

roydop wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 am Look at our species. Why are we acting the way we are? It's because we have misinterpreted the physical realm to be fundamental reality and instead of investigating ourselves and our minds, we keep adding more and more experiences thinking that some day this will satisfy.

Yes, you are correct; we have indeed misinterpreted the physical realm to be fundamental reality. But that’s because like a fetus that is still suspended within the darkness of its mother’s womb, we are not yet privy to the truth of our ultimate form (that “true self” you keep referring to).

In other words, like sleepwalkers who are momentarily incapable of recognizing that they are not fully awake, we are prone to errors in judgment.

roydop wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 am I find the statement: "...never seem to realize or consider how utterly useless their theories are to humans in the darkest and most frightening moments of their existence." hilarious. I'm trying to show you the way to end all suffering in your life, including fear of death, and you see this information as "utterly useless." The way it is useless is if you ignore the message and don't do the work/practice.

Come on now, roydop, are you under the impression that everyone on this forum is a metaphysical neophyte who has never studied the Eastern philosophies and cannot recognize when an “Introduction to Meditation 101” is being presented?

Now don’t get me wrong, for I certainly appreciate and applaud your good intentions for wanting to teach others how to reduce their suffering, and I have no doubt that meditation does indeed help in that regard.

However, the practices you are promoting have been around for thousands of years and in no way, shape, or form offer any conclusive or irrefutable insight into our ultimate destiny following the event of death.
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Posted: **Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:55 pm**

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:05 pm
Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:01 am
There is no "I" or "you".

So, who/what is communicating back and forth with each other then?

"YOU" have said that the 'real Self' is NOT "you" nor "I", so then Who/What is the 'real Self' then?

I or SELF or YOU ...are relative concepts - anything relative is always within itself appearing as a point of reference to itself only.

Tree, bush, ocean, and green are relative concepts also, just like consciousness, awareness, God and enlightenment are too.

In fact absolutely EVERY thing is relative to the observer.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:05 pmConcepts are the voice of the voiceless. Images are the images of the imageless.

The concept ''ego'' is just an idea arising with the Everything and Nothing ...there is no separate individual ego existing or doing anything. All doing is one unitary action, in other words doing is done, but no doer thereof.

SELF is this immediate self-shining self-evident ever luminous ever-present NOTHING AND EVERYTHING.

Nothing and Everything is life living itself as one unitary action. Nothing in this unitary action is in relationship with something else, except as a thought - but even that thought is couched within the Nothing and Everything...so the thought ''I am doing and being'' is an illusion within the Nothing and Everything.
So in essence it is Nothing and Everything doing, living, being, conceptualising, and thinking.

When you try to point to the actual location of the individual SELF ...where is it?

That is extremely EASY and SIMPLE to answer and SHOW.

The one who writes under the label "dontaskme", however, BELIEVES that this would be an impossible thing to do. Therefore, "you" are left stuck in "your" BELIEFS.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:05 pm...you'll see that is does not exist apart from the Nothing and Everything...it cannot be located to exist anywhere, there is no exact location of it, because it's just an idea, it's a thought, and thoughts are invisible... thoughts are actually invisible...and we all know this to be true.

So for anyone who wants to argue that there is an individual ''You'' aka ''Ego'' ... then all you are doing is identifying with something invisible.
Nothing and Everything has no concept or image of itself. Anything SEEN is a concept, but the seer has no concept, so to say well look here ''I am seeing'' ..that is still a concept within non-conceptual seeing..aka truth.

You cannot point to anything seen and say this is who ''I am''...because that then leaves the question what or who is pointing?

You are still left with the problem of who or what is seeing the seen.

But there is NO problem, to me. The ANSWER can be very easily SEEN and UNDERSTOOD, by me.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:05 pm Auspicious seeing is when seer and seen are SEEN as the one unitary action of Everything and Nothing.

When this auspicious seeing is seen that Everything and Nothing is all there ever is, was, and ever will be, then that is the entrance into Nonduality...the true SELF.

.

So, after all of that there eventually ends up being a true Self anyway. Thank God for that, some might say.

By the way, Do "you" think that I do NOT already KNOW what you have been TRYING TO explain for quite a while now?

The difference between "you" and 'I' though, is "you" are the like the priest when asked to explain what 'God' is and they say "There are some things we are not meant to know". "you" are exactly like this. "you" do NOT yet have the answer to some thing, so "you" BELIEVE that it is impossible to KNOW.

What "you" say can NOT be KNOW or UNDERSTOOD is ALREADY KNOWN and UNDERSTOOD, and can be very easily explained also, so that even those like "you" could UNDERSTAND it, too.

Posted: **Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:14 pm**

Age:
That is extremely EASY and SIMPLE to answer and SHOW.

Show it then... Don’t just say it, show it ....Where is the individual self?

The one who writes under the label "dontaskme", however, BELIEVES that this would be an impossible thing to do. Therefore, "you" are left stuck in "your" BELIEFS.

No, the one who writes under the label “Age” believes that “Dontaskme” believes that this would be an impossible thing to do.

When In truth she doesn’t believe that at all...you only believe she does else you wouldn’t have said it...if you hold no beliefs then you can’t know that that’s what she believes.

Do you see the dilemma?

.

Posted: **Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:16 pm**

Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:06 am ...

Your lengthy response is too convoluted, noisy, self-indulgent for me to wade through and interact with. Clarity and value are trampled and lost in your spin. I don't think communication has to be so particular as you continually squabble over.

Good luck to you.

Posted: **Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:15 pm**

roydop wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 amThe world disappears during dreamless sleep but you still exist. The death state is simply a larger cycle of the same state.

Seeds:
No, roydop, the world does not disappear during dreamless sleep; just your own personal awareness of the world disappears

Seeds, there is no world, the world is a dream within awareness, that never sleeps. The world is a mental projection ..this projection switches off when the mind (thought of you) is in abeyance. There’s no personal awareness that can disappear because there is no awareness of non-awareness.There is only awareness being aware....being lucid in it’s own projected dream world.

The idea there is a personal awareness that goes to sleep each night is a dream, it doesn’t exist...dreams both waking and nightly dreams are appearing within the same one awareness, that never appears or disappears, it’s constantly aware wide awake...it has to be wide awake to be aware it is dreaming....so only the dreams can appear and disappear not awareness..both nightly and waking dreams just differ in appearance that’s all...but ultimately they are both occurring within one source which is awareness.

.

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:20 am**

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:10 pm Consciousness cannot manifest itself through me when I am dead but only when I am alive
But life and death are merely different states : one of awareness and one of no awareness
I am looking forward to being free of suffering in the state of no awareness when it comes
This state will be an eternal one and it is the reason as to why I do not fear death anymore

Living state is Awareness plus the world. Death state is Awareness minus the world.

Birth and death are aspects of life. Life/Awareness is all there is.

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:35 am**

"Yes, and it became obvious to me approximately 50 years ago, how about you?"

About a decade ago.

"On the other hand, it is not empty in the way you are contemptuously portraying it to be, for it (the universe) represents the means through-which our eventually to be revealed “true self” was awakened into existence."

The universe is a game of hide and seek Self/God/the Absolute is playing with itself. Once Self is remembered, interest is lost and the game is concluded.

"we are not yet privy to the truth of our ultimate form (that “true self” you keep referring to)."

Incorrect. All humans have the ability to realize their enlightenment. All that need be done is to keep awareness focused on the self awareness more than on thoughts and sensations.

Also, Self, as it is Absolute does not have a physical form. This idea creates "turtles all the way."

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:48 am**

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:16 pm
Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:06 am ...
Your lengthy response is too convoluted, noisy, self-indulgent for me to wade through and interact with. Clarity and value are trampled and lost in your spin. I don't think communication has to be so particular as you continually squabble over.

Good luck to you.

I concur. Age's communication is too convoluted.

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:45 am**

The Hindu belief that the Absolute, our true self, is playing hide and seek with itself, is one of the best metaphysical ideas ever invented, I really like it. It's almost correct, because as far as we can tell, our egos are indeed illusory, our "true self" is indeed the Absolute. So this idea contains the first awakening from the ego.

But the Absolute isn't an entity, does not play hide and seek, has no intention, has no interest, doesn't feel like awareness, there isn't anything positive about it, or anything at all to say about it, really. Even great sages like Ramana Maharshi seem to have fallen for this illusion. Seeing through this as well is sort of the second awakening from the ego.

In my experience, the vast majority who start to wake up, get stuck in limbo between the first and second stage. It's a very pleasant, optimistic place, but they are still tricked. A lot of Eastern philosophy is based on this illusion.

The great question of philosophy is that, if even "intentional hide and seek" is an illusion, then why are we here? There must be something else about this world, which may have to do with the Absolute sort of naturally looping through itself. That's where philosophy starts to get really interesting imo, I've been pondering this for a decade, but I never see this discussed.

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:23 am**

roydop wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 amThe world disappears during dreamless sleep but you still exist. The death state is simply a larger cycle of the same state.

seeds wrote: No, roydop, the world does not disappear during dreamless sleep; just your own personal awareness of the world disappears.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:15 pm Seeds, there is no world...

...Once again, grandma has considered your claim and found it wanting.

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Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:23 pm**

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:45 am
In my experience, the vast majority who start to wake up, get stuck in limbo between the first and second stage. It's a very pleasant, optimistic place, but they are still tricked.

Well, that of course would just be your own experience wouldn't it? ..doesn' mean you can know if another person as had a full blown awakening or not, that's not for you to know, all you've got is your own first person direct experience to go by.

Nothing wrong with the way you've described your own experience either, that's the whole point of the trick in the first place, it's a trick, a trickless trick to be precise.

The ego (relative dream character)likes to take centre stage, so the Absolute aka (pure awareness in which the dream character is arising) allows it centre stage unconditionally while it looks on in complete detachment, knowing that it is only dreaming. Ultimately there is no thing but the Absolute...dreaming itself alive...the dream is all there is, it's the play of consciousness, or what the Hindu's call the play of Leela)...there is no play without an actor, and no audience without a play, and no play without both actor and audience simultaneously one in the moment. There's nothing to get stuck up about over that.

Awakened people (aka consciousness knowing itself via the mind) knows that both the absolute and the relative exist in the same moment as one unitary action. The mind aka an aspect of consciousness can flip quite easily between the two apparent opposites, from knowing the absolute to knowing the relative, because the mind knows itself. It knows because it knows it doesn't know...those two apparent opposites have to exist in the same moment, and they do, and that is called duality...the play of consciousness.

Consciousness is universal, it's the first and last eveything and nothing.. That's what non-duality means. Duality is always couched within Non-dual Absolute Reality.

Don't forget the mind is Teflon...nothing can stick to the awakened mind.

.

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:43 pm**

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:23 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:45 am
In my experience, the vast majority who start to wake up, get stuck in limbo between the first and second stage. It's a very pleasant, optimistic place, but they are still tricked.
Well, that of course would just be your own experience wouldn't it? ..doesn' mean you can know if another person as had a full blown awakening or not, that's not for you to know, all you've got is your own first person direct experience to go by.

Nothing wrong with the way you've described your own experience either, that's the whole point of the trick in the first place, it's a trick, a trickless trick to be precise.

The ego (relative dream character)likes to take centre stage, so the Absolute aka (pure awareness in which the dream character is arising) allows it centre stage unconditionally while it looks on in complete detachment, knowing that it is only dreaming. Ultimately there is no thing but the Absolute...dreaming itself alive...the dream is all there is, it's the play of consciousness, or what the Hindu's call the play of Leela)...there is no play without an actor, and no audience without a play, and no play without both actor and audience simultaneously one in the moment. There's nothing to get stuck up about over that.

Awakened people (aka consciousness knowing itself via the mind) knows that both the absolute and the relative exist in the same moment as one unitary action. The mind aka an aspect of consciousness can flip quite easily between the two apparent opposites, from knowing the absolute to knowing the relative, because the mind knows itself. It knows because it knows it doesn't know...those two apparent opposites have to exist in the same moment, and they do, and that is called duality...the play of consciousness.

Consciousness is universal, it's the first and last eveything and nothing.. That's what non-duality means. Duality is always couched within Non-dual Absolute Reality.

Don't forget the mind is Teflon...nothing can stick to the awakened mind.

.

Give it up DAM, you will never understand.

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:40 pm**

"But the Absolute isn't an entity, does not play hide and seek, has no intention, has no interest, doesn't feel like awareness, there isn't anything positive about it, or anything at all to say about it, really. Even great sages like Ramana Maharshi seem to have fallen for this illusion."

Huh? How do you figure that Ramana "fell for" anything? His teaching was sitting in silence. Fully Enlightened, Done.

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:45 am The Hindu belief that the Absolute, our true self, is playing hide and seek with itself, is one of the best metaphysical ideas ever invented, I really like it. It's almost correct, because as far as we can tell, our egos are indeed illusory, our "true self" is indeed the Absolute. So this idea contains the first awakening from the ego.

The great question of philosophy is that, if even "intentional hide and seek" is an illusion, then why are we here? There must be something else about this world, which may have to do with the Absolute sort of naturally looping through itself. That's where philosophy starts to get really interesting imo, I've been pondering this for a decade, but I never see this discussed.

In order to prevent infinite regression ("turtles all the way"), one must realize that the entire world is metaphor. So if the world itself continues on expanding for infinity in an attempt to fully describe the Absolute, then any attempt to find conclusion "going out" following the path of thought will run in parallel with it. FO EVA!

This idea/fact that the "game" contains the potential to go on infinitely, has indicated to me that the purpose of the game is to complete (escape, end) the game. The basic underlying "code"/instruction of the system is: "That which is focused on most will appear most real." So the more interesting something is, the more powerful the spell of maya. Even mind/thoughts apply. This system operates on cycles/iterations that bootstraps each new accepted reality, forming the base of the next creative cycle.

Taking this literally, which I do, fundamentally the purpose for anything happening within the game is to draw attention to it in order for it to appear real/give it life. The degree to which awareness is placed on the phenomena is the degree it appears substantial, and also the degree to which Awareness is diverted from the Absolute (causing temporary, localized delusion).

It's the most difficult labyrinth ever created. Look at where following mind has led us. It's part of the design and we fell for it

HARD!

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